Toxic Independence

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is where we like to discuss ideas and issues related to leadership, team and organizational development. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. And hopefully, you’ll find some better practices to apply in your work. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph love the title of this episode, Toxic Independence.

Ralph Simone: I’m gonna stir it up today, Billy. So here’s what, years ago, I wrote about the problem with the United States starts with a Declaration of Independence, and it’s part of our strength. But when overplayed this idea of independence, a, rugged individualist, we can take it to an extreme. And I was listening to this podcast from new dimensions radio therapist Terry Real, and he talked about, when taken to an extreme, he used this term, toxic independence. And I thought, what a great concept for leaders and, teams and organizations and individuals to be mindful of. When is my independent thinking and acting becoming toxic to the organization?

Bill Berthel: Okay, so now we’re going to get tagged by the federal government with this episode because we’re going against our patriotism. But that’s okay. I didn’t know.

Ralph Simone: Oh, well, I didn’t know I was going to say that, but,

Bill Berthel: This Is the kind of intelligent conversations I think we need to have more of, not just in our country, but I’m sure globally. So, toxic toxicity is an extreme, right. The same element in lower doses could be a value. Right. Water is toxic. If you get too much in your lungs, you’ll die. I’m. It’s all about dosage frequency, right? The concentration. Independence isn’t a bad thing.

Ralph Simone: Correct.

Bill Berthel: But when it gets extreme, it has some toxic qualities.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. I mean, there’s certainly virtue in marching to the beat of your own drummer, and to paraphrase Thoreau, one of America’s greatest loners. But the independence at all costs discourse never really sat right with me.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we’re a social species. Our overall health relies on connectivity, interdependency, relationships with others.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And I think we unknowingly and unwittingly set ourselves up for this. I mean, I think it starts, you know, some examples if you’ve been to a high school graduation lately, you know, they isolate. They focus on the two independent high achievers. There’s a valedictorian, salutatorian, and I haven’t been at a high school graduation where they give an award to the young man or woman who’s helped out most of his or her classmates. So we kind of set people up for this independent individual achievement by recognizing it.

Bill Berthel: I’m not sure our systems have the mechanism to measure and be aware of the person helping the most. That might be the first challenge. How would we recognize that student who is being most helpful? We’re not even looking for that.

Ralph Simone: No, because we’re talking about rugged individualism. We’re talking about independence, and we need to be also talking about interdependence, how we’re helping one another, how we’re creating connections. I laugh at the examples that seem to slip under the radar, even how people travel. everybody’s got their own vehicle. People travel separately. I remember years ago, we were doing a team building session, so we had an intact senior leadership, team, and we were doing an off site. It was about 40 miles away. And I just happened to ask the guy, did you guys ride up together? And he looked at me like I had two heads. Like, why would we do that? And I thought, okay, why would they do that? But if the idea of being part of a team and collaborating is this relationship building the time spent traveling together in a vehicle is part of that process of building a team.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. It provides the vessel, the vehicle, the space to have that conversation or connection. It also builds the time. So you’re talking about utilizing some of these pragmatic opportunities to get more interdependency. There might be some opportunities right in front of us that we’re just not taking advantage of.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. You know, and I get the idea. I’m a pretty independent guy. So, as you said, we value it. I mean, I used to like driving alone so I could leave when I wanted to.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Ralph Simone: I used to like driving alone because I didn’t drink, and I trusted my driving. Right. There were reasons to operate independently, but I think we need to kind of look at it and see at what impact it’s having on the system, on the relationships and in an organization, on our ability to really cooperate and collaborate and get the synergy of the differences.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

What’s coming up for me is this is almost a sort of equally dangerous opposite of, like, being too codependent. Right? Like this. Toxic Independence has us so self reliant, we become very disconnected from others, possibly even harming others around us. Some real polarization.

Ralph Simone: We could also have a podcast on toxic interdependence, where everything’s a Team and we have this love puddle, but we don’t get anything done.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: So it is really balancing it. But if we go back to some other examples that energize me. I mean, this new phenomenon to me of ghosting seems to be, from my vantage point, an example of toxic independence. People had to explain it to me because I couldn’t. It was hard for me to get my mind around it. Like, somebody just doesn’t show. They just don’t show up. And I think the one that really got me the other day was, a client of ours who was really excited that four of the five people that they offered jobs to and had accepted showed up. Which means one person accepted the offer, but never showed up to work. And never let them know that he or she was choosing something different.

Bill Berthel: But, I mean, I was excited. They saw that as success because four out of 5…

Ralph Simone: 80 of percent hit rate. And I was thinking to myself, I mean, that’s gotta be. It’s like, you’re never gonna bump into these people or your decision is completely independent of how it affects. Right. If they don’t show and they were hiring five, they still need somebody. And that’s where I think we have to realize we’re not operating in a vacuum. In that our actions impact other people. And we need to mitigate a little bit of this rugged individualism. So that we can communicate our intentions with other people.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, we’re really missing the idea that we’re part of something bigger, aren’t we? I don’t love thinking I’m part of a system, but I know I am. And maybe that’s where some of my independence comes from. But the idea that we are connected, whether that is through society, our organizations. I’m thinking the ramifications on leadership. That within our own teams and organizations, those other people are relying on us, and we’re relying on them. It’s the reason we come together in an organization to do more together. I think leaders in organizations have some really unique opportunities to bring potentially very independent people together to be more successful. To really bring their independent thinking to a collaborative place.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. I had the benefit of working for, I thought, a very enlightened leader by the name of Dick Brereton at Carrier. And at that time, this was in the mid eighties, I was the manager for quality performance for all of North America. We were running a series of quality management systems workshops. And I remember lamenting to him about how one fairly visible senior leader chose not to come to the workshop. And he said, I’ve had all the training and quality. I already know that. In fact, I could probably be teaching the course. And I was disappointed I wasn’t able to get him there. When I shared my frustration with Dick, he said, neither one of you really understand leadership yet. I was a little bit taken aback because I thought this was all about the other guy. And he said, it’s not just about what you can get from something when you’re a leader, but it’s much more important is what you can give to others. And he said, if this guy was so knowledgeable, and because he was so visible in the organization, he had a responsibility to be there. And he goes, you know that thinking about, well, from, the perspective he’s been there, done, that was really an example of, I think, what the podcast would refer to as toxic independence.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah. The contribution of that leader was missed. That’s the responsibility to contribute.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, yeah. And I think it goes further. I mean, these, I think this podcast, new dimensions radio, put it in perspective for me. One of my favorite movie lines is from the movie Miracle. That was the story about the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Team.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, right.

Ralph Simone: And they were all from different colleges and universities, and that’s how they identified, you know, the University of Minnesota, Boston University, Boston College. And it wasn’t until the captain, Mike Garuzzioni, finally got it, and he said that he was a member of the US Olympic Team. And that prompted Herb Brooks, to say, gentlemen, the name on the front of the jersey is a heck of a lot more important than the name on the back. And I think if we were to balance this independence with interdependence, we’d make much better decisions as it relates to our teams, our organizations, our communities and the world.

Bill Berthel: Oh, absolutely. there’s some modern research in social science and organizational development science, I believe it’s called contrast theory, where we have a real opportunity when we bring people. Your hockey Team analogy reminds me of this. When we bring people from very different backgrounds with very independent, creative thoughts together, we have an opportunity for conflict. We can turn that into purposeful contrast by giving them a, clear purpose and mission. When that happens, conflict starts to dissolve and the contrast of different ideas come out to some type of more creative, better outcome. So whether that’s innovation, whether that’s process improvement, leaders have some really unique opportunities to bring independent people together on purposeful teams and get synergy.

Ralph Simone: No question. And the one that I think all of our leaders can kind of take a little personal inventory on, is showing up to meetings late, if you think about this idea. Well, and I’ve heard people say, well, I didn’t miss much. And we have this challenge. Sometimes we do a training session. If we start at 830 and we’re doing it half the group is there. And so now do you start with half the group there? Do you cycle back? And there seems to be, at least my observation, a, casualness around this among many people, which I think is because they’re not seeing themselves as connected to the others that are part of that meeting or learning experience. And I think that’s a change that all of us can make, is to be very mindful of that when we’re attending anything with other people, that independence must be blended with the interdependence. We are, in fact, then part of a system.

Bill Berthel: I love that example, Ralph And maybe under the title of Toxic Independence, that’s too strong, but that’s really a significant irritant in the organization and of the team. That’s something we could practice being really responsible and reliable to our, peers and our teammates by showing up on time.

Ralph Simone: My conscientiousness or perhaps anal tendencies. I’ve been told by people that you’re the only guy who calls up in advance to let me know you’ll be on time. But, you know, when I feel like there’s a possibility that I may be holding someone or something up, I feel, you know, the need to communicate because of that interdependent nature, because of there is a connection, and I am affecting the system by not being there on the appointed time.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

What other ways can we either encourage or maybe inspire leaders to think about reducing the toxicity of potential independence and really harnessing this for good in their organizations?

Ralph Simone: I think one thing is just to kind of reflect on one’s own behaviors over a course of a week. And how many of those are, independent, interdependent. How often are you thinking of the system as a whole versus just what’s best for you? I mean, I think it comes up in the working from home or working in the office. It’s certainly more convenient for me. It would have been more convenient for me today to do these podcasts from home because I’m heading for a weekend out of town. But there’s, more synergy, and we have better equipment when we do it here together. Right. And so I think sometimes people are taking it to the extreme. You know, when you’re going in the office one day a week, thats really more independent than interdependent thinking, in my mind.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah. I often think about the balanced energy and effort being used to relate and achieve and it is equitable. The research shows that relating and achieving at a balanced level in time and energy is higher performing, especially in leadership. And so I love your idea of reviewing my day or my week. I kind of use that metric. Have I roughly 50 50 related and got things done in my work.

Ralph Simone: I think there’s another thing to look at, and we’ve, talked about this in other podcasts. Head down, overwhelmed tactical work. I think that’s more independent, if we chunk up to more strategic. Looking at it from a total systems perspective, I think it’s more interdependent. And I think there is a tremendous amount of wasted energy in organizations when we move too much towards this toxic independence.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. So let’s watch for that extremeness that could lead to a toxicity around too much independence. Ralph, thank you.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Bill, thank you. Because the end of the day, we are all connected, and I think that’s where this really becomes important.

Bill Berthel: And, thank you all for listening and being connected to us here at this podcast at Get Emergent. We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you’re looking forward to even more. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And, we hope you picked something up that you’re going to apply to your leadership and your work. Let us know how that goes by reaching out to support@getemergent.com or directly to me or Ralph thanks for listening.