Things We’re Learning

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is where we like to discuss ideas and issues related to leadership, team and organizational development. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership, and hopefully you’ll find some better practices to apply in your work. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph I’m really excited about our episode today because we’re not only going to be modeling that we are lifelong learners, and that’s really normal in our work in leadership, but preparing for today and what we’re learning as coaches, trainers in leadership development, it really gave me the opportunity to be hyper reflective on where I could do a little better.

Ralph Simone: I like this topic because recently I was asked the question, what do I look for in an employer or a leader? And it’s somewhat one of the things is this willingness to learn. And so I think that got us excited about what are we learning about ourselves and from our work, but also from the work we do with our clients, what are some of the challenges? And we thought it might be fun to share some of the things that we are learning so far this year, we’re not quite at the halfway point, and so why don’t you get us started?

What’s one thing that you’re learning that came to mind?

Bill Berthel: Thanks. I thought about this in a few different ways, but learning about myself. You mentioned that we have this opportunity to learn a little bit more about ourselves. I’m, almost a little embarrassed to admit this, but I’m not as good a listener as I train others to be learning that. I’d like to reframe that, that I have more potential to be a better listener. But if I’m really just, you know, raw with myself, I’m not listening as well as I’d like to as a coach, I feel my primary job is holding that space and listening, and I think I do it well in my coaching. But you know what? I’m. I’m thinking too much. I’m in my own head. I’m processing, I’m analyzing. I’m thinking about the next question, right. Thinking about my response instead of being fully present, fully paying attention and listening.

Ralph Simone: Well, as a good meditation teacher would say, it’s good that you’re noticing that. But I think I’m learning that most people aren’t fully listening almost at any given time. And I think we miss things. And I think one of the things that I’m continuing to learn is that just this pace and speed that we’re operating under. And the sense of overwhelm people feel in organizations that many of the conversations are simply soundbites and they don’t really get at the content or the context of the real challenge at hand.

Bill Berthel: I love that you say that. That sound bites, Ralph. So something I really bristle against in our industry I really dislike is when I’m hearing either coaches or other trainers talk like bumper stickers. That’s what I, and I watch myself in that space because I don’t particularly like it. But I realize the reason I don’t like it is because I think it’s those sound bites. Right. It’s just kind of just putting out those little sound bites instead of a deeper connection.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, well, and what does it even mean? You know, I think even this idea we’re talking about listening, about being present or being in the now, it gets so overused. and I think if we can kind of dig a little bit deeper and, you know, find out what do people really mean? What’s the real challenge here, and what are some things that we can help them explore experimenting with?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, so let’s go back and forth here.

What are you learning about yourself in your practice so far?

Ralph Simone: This, I think, unfortunately, I think I said this in front of my whole family, that I’m learning that I’m still quite a perfectionist. And I think all three of my family members burst out laughing like, it took you this long to figure it out, but, I’m learning that I need to embrace it.

Bill Berthel: How so?

Ralph Simone: Well, there’s an upside. There certainly is an upside to wanting things to be at a high level. And the one thing I am learning that I can, and I framed it this way, I can have these very high and perfect aspirations, but lower expectations and, then appreciation for what I did accomplish or what I did learn because I don’t want to lower my standards.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: As I said probably to my wife the other day, I can spot a mistake a mile away. But I think there’s an upside to be able to sense and spot things that are not as complete as they could be. And I’m learning that embracing that and redirecting that is actually a useful tool.

Bill Berthel: I hear, an empowerment in that as well. I think some perfectionists, I dont know if this speaks to you, but when I think about my tendency in that space is I’m comparing myself not just to my own standards, but others as well. The idea of changing expectations to aspirations, I dont know. I hear a self empowerment in that I hear an opportunity to maybe be a better version of myself compared to myself, instead of external metrics.

Ralph Simone: Yes. And I think shooting high satisfies this achievement orientation. But modifying one’s expectations so you can be okay with whatever unfolds, so you stay in the game and then appreciation of what you’re learning in the process. So it is really a reframing.

Bill Berthel: I bet an outcome will be less disappointment. I, feel like there’d be.

Ralph Simone: Yes. Yeah, I think that’s spot on, because the disappointment creates resistance and sometimes it causes me to not take action, to kind of stay stuck.

Bill Berthel: So, yeah, one way I was preparing for today’s conversation was thinking about different than what I’m learning about myself, what I’m learning about my practice of coaching. And I’ve really been noticing is this sounds minimalized, but I have no other way of saying it. Just holding the space is huge. So many leaders are doing great work out there, but a lot of it’s very transactional and very fast paced. And holding the space for them to do some discovery or some verbal processing has been really impactful with the people. I’ve been coaching just holding that space.

Ralph Simone: So this may not be good for our business model, but quite frankly, I think that’s brilliant. I think that people don’t have very much space ever held for them, and so we don’t have to ask a lot of really great questions, we don’t have to share a lot of brilliant insights. But just sitting there, allowing people to kind of do their own self discovery and exploration. I was reviewing all of my coaching notes from the beginning of the year. I was looking for patterns. And I think relative to why this holding the space is important, people are feeling overwhelmed. Many leaders are so tied up with the day to day tactical and doing that they aren’t investing much energy around just thinking. And so I think the holding of the space provides that opportunity. Often it catches them short, though, because it’s something that they’re out of practice doing. They’re not in the habit of just getting quiet and thinking bigger or different thoughts or being introspective.

Bill Berthel: I think you’re exactly right. This is going to sound a little critical, but so many folks I’m working with are on autopilot in their work and their personal lives. Right. Routines, patterns, reoccurring tasks. A lot of transactional work has them on, fast pace, has them on autopilot. The thing is, I think many of us are. I’m not sure I’m immune to that either. This is hitting home. I think a measure of success is getting more things done.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: I mean that. Right. There’s an urgency,

Ralph Simone: But we were talking the other day, there’s getting stuff done, but there’s getting the right stuff done. And I think one of the curses that haunts high achievers is, they operate under the additive principle. They learn a new technique, they get excited about, and they just add it on top of all of the other things, as opposed to stepping back and saying, what can I take out? Or what could I put on hold? Or what could someone else do? And I think that’s where holding the space and asking some questions gets people to look at it from a different perspective. And because of that automatic pilot, one of the things I’m learning is that people are not intentional about what it is they want, why they want it, and how they need to show up in order to get it. And that comes through. I mean, it’s interesting. One of my opening questions in any conversation, but certainly a coaching one, is, what’s on your mind? Or how could I be of best use to you or service to you today? And most people say, wow, that’s a great question, and they have no idea.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Which is okay.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Because it’s in the not knowing that the knowing appears, but it seems like it ought to be something you ought to think about. Right. You know, using the time intentionally. And I think this is what leads to. The other thing, this is not a new learning, that we are spending an inordinate amount of time in unproductive meetings. But I think that’s linked to this fast paced being an automatic pilot. We’re not being intentional about the meetings. We participate in what the objective of the meeting, and what’s our desired outcome, and therefore, we’re just kind of churning.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, churning is good. What’s coming up for me is this desire to turn these vicious cycles into virtuous cycles. And I think it goes back to intention that you’re right, breaking that cycle, at least through a practice of being more intentional in setting up our days and our weeks and our planning, anchoring back to our values, right. In those intentions. And they’re really paying attention and calibrating through the week with that

Ralph Simone: Bill,

I think that one of the things that I’m also learning that people aren’t doing for themselves is they’re not advocating for themselves. They’re not asking for what they need or for what they want for myriad reasons. Right. They don’t want to appear selfish. They don’t think it will go anywhere.

Bill Berthel: No. Right. There’s a risk in asking for what you want. You could hear no.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. They’re afraid to surface it. and I’ve been playing around with this, with clients. I said, all Right, look, it sounds like you’re not ready to ask for that, so how about you just write out what you would ask for? What is it that you would ask for? And I’ve been playing around with this myself, and we’ve talked about this in other podcasts, this importance of changing complaint, or frustration into a request. And in the last two weeks, in two non work transactions, I’ve had some disappointment or frustration, and I’ve, immediately called up and asked for what I wanted, and in both cases, was pleasantly surprised at the response. And it’s an interesting thing. And these, they weren’t huge asks, but it was just asking for what I wanted. And I’m seeing not enough people advocating for themselves in organizations. Almost this selflessness, almost like being martyrs. Right. They’re doing more than they think they ought to. They’re not being valued for it, and yet they’re not asking. They’re not asking for help, they’re not asking for recognition. They’re not asking. Right. And I’m not sure, what’s causing it, but that’s a pattern that I’ve been noticing.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I’d agree with you. I think sometimes it shows up as not setting those clear expectations for self and others, not setting some boundaries and a little bit of martyrism. I mean, going above and beyond is wonderful at times, but maybe there’s an over reliance or too much of that happening with most leaders.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think one of the things I’d like to encourage people to do is practice more of this healthy selfishness, and it is both. And. Right. There is an element of selflessness and selfishness that needs to be balanced in order to sustain performance in any organization. And you got to take care of yourself, and you need to take care of others both.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. One more thing that I’ve been noticing. I’ll say it’s not a new learning. It’s a, reminder or a continued learning that despite all of our challenges and dysfunctions as people, there’s some great things happening out there. There’s some really passionate folks that are doing really good work in our communities. The majority of this is driven by a deep desire to do well. And I get re energized by that. Even in the face of the challenges and the complaints and the difficulties and the dysfunction, it’s all fueled by really good people trying to do good work.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. And that’s why I want to really kind of underscore this slowing down in this holding the space for others, because I think people are really unclear on how to navigate the current challenges in their organizations. They want to change things. They want to make them better. They are expending lots of energy, but they don’t seem to have found the most effective ways to do that. And I think it’s counterintuitive. I think that’s where you need to pause. That’s where you need to get away from it. Right. Step away from it so that you can see it from a clearer and fresher perspective.

Bill Berthel: I’m guilty of that. My, tendency is to muscle it more or work harder at it. It is counterintuitive.

Ralph Simone: Well, I’ve been thinking about this. You use the word muscle. I think we over muscle, and don’t massage enough. and I was thinking about this from, I’ve been doing a, therapeutic massage lately, and how much better I. Feel

Bill Berthel: I’m doing the same thing.

Ralph Simone: And I’m learning that I’ve got a lot of blocks and I’ve got a lot of restrictions, and you actually aggravate those blocks and restrictions when you try to muscle things, when you try to muscle it through and push it through and drive, and, well, there’s a need for that at times versus massaging it, and maybe it should be muscle and massage. And I’m finding great value. I’m feeling much better, but I’m wondering how organizations would feel better if they were doing a little less muscling in, a little more massaging.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I love it. What’s the equivalency of that massaging in the workplace? Ralph? I’m curious what we’d ask people to experiment with to get those massage sessions in.

Ralph Simone: That’s a great question, and I’m not sure how I would answer it, but I think it goes back to part of it is holding the space. I remember my first reaction to getting a massage was, I don’t have time for that. So the first thing is finding time for it. The second thing is that it might be a little painful in the beginning. And I think when we look at a muscle, a tightness in the tissue is similar to a bottleneck in the organization. And in order to work it out, it may be a little painful at first, and it requires a much different way of looking at it. That’s the first thing that comes to my mind. What would you add to that, doctor?

Bill Berthel: I like that. I think continual improvement kind of mindset. That is the massage. Right. The self care. It’s the organizational care. I think that’s applied in process. I think that’s applied in the technology and tools we use, but I think it’s applied to the relationships we have in the workplace as well. there’s a little too much head down, eyes down kind of happening. These sound silly, but going to lunch with people not at your desk and working, that’s muscling it. Pause and have that break. Strike, up a conversation with your coworker. I think it’s those seemingly small things that are mini massages along the way.

Ralph Simone: That’s another thing I’ve learned. I’ve noticed that people seem to be less reluctant to go to lunch with somebody. I mean, I’ve suggested it a few times, and it’s like, well, I got too much to do. Or if I work through lunch, I can go home early and I get.

Ralph Simone: That piece of it

Bill Berthel: We were talking about that. That’s muscling it, right?

Ralph Simone: Yeah. yeah. But I’m going to drive through it, and we’re in a conversation with a client because I’m rethinking the lunch and learn offerings that we have because we’re actually encouraging people by doing that. And so that’s what I’m learning about us not to take a break. So we’re actually not congruent when we do those things. Right. It’s additive. How do we get this in there in the least disruptive way? As opposed to what could we take out and do this during the non lunch hour? It’s kind of an interesting one, and we’ll continue to, work on it. But I’m learning that’s what people will tend to do. They’ll say, let’s just fit it in. We’ll skip lunch. You forget about the sustenance part, which is obviously important, but breaking bread is about relationship building.

Bill Berthel: That’s right. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And I’m learning that we could be more intentional about that as well.

Bill Berthel: I think the punctuation on this episode is that it’s not learning just for learning sake. It’s learning to do something a little differently moving forward. Run a new experiment, shift to behavior, try something from the learning. Right. So as we reflect on this, we’re going to have some opportunities to. For me, it’s been a, focus on listening better, being in the conversation with my coaching clients, and not thinking about the next question.

Ralph Simone: Yes.

Bill Berthel: Questions come to me that sounds corny, but they do. They show up when I kind of let it go or release it a little bit.

Ralph Simone: And for me, I think it’s embracing my perfectionism as opposed to resisting it in using it as a way to see how all of the pieces fit together and using it as an opportunity to see how I could be more perfect in the way in which my life is managed or integrated. And so I think I’m, learning to embrace that more as opposed to resist it and fight it.

Bill Berthel: Ralph thank you.

Ralph Simone: Thanks, Bill.

Bill Berthel: And folks, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you’re looking forward to more. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you pick something up, you’re going to apply to your leadership and your work that you’re going to experiment with. Let us know how it’s going, and, just reach out to us at support@getemergent.com or directly to myself or Ralph thanks for listening.