The Brilliant Jerk Dilemma

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

Welcome. I’m Bill Berthel and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the 20 plus years of our business, is that leadership is a continued conversation. We’re glad you’re here.

Hey, Jeremiah. I’m glad we’re back together again. I know we’ve got, so many topics to talk about and I think we even talked about the idea of how do we link our episodes to make it feel like one conversation. Right. So I think it’s a little bit of that because of our topic of leadership, self development and team development. But you were sharing the idea that I think your family really loves the TV show Pit.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Oh yeah.

Bill Berthel

And like, I’m not watching that yet. So tell me about the structure of that.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Okay, so structure. And this is what gets you hooked

Bill Berthel

That’s what I hear.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Each season is one shift in the emergency department of the hospital.

Bill Berthel

So like a job shift. Like the nurses, the ER people. Their, Their shift.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes.

Bill Berthel

Okay.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Their shift. And each episode is one hour of that entire shift.

Bill Berthel

So it’s like real time.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. Yes.

Bill Berthel

You’re watching them in real time of an hour of their shift.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes.

Bill Berthel

Okay.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. And the things that happen through that hour.

Bill Berthel

So a season is a 12-hour shift or a however long shift.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, I think it’s 12 hours.

Bill Berthel

So every episode is another hour.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes.

Bill Berthel

And it’s like you’re watching the whole shift across the season.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes.

Bill Berthel

Wow.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Got it.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, you got it.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And they do a great job of ending and beginning at the exact moment of the next hour.

Bill Berthel

Okay.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So you pick up right where you left off. Which if you’re trying not to binge a show that’s compelling.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

It makes it hard not to just let the next one play.

Bill Berthel

So that might be why we talked about trying to do that structure here. I’m not sure we’re going to, but it almost begs you to binge watch it.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, it does. And you’re engaged with the story, the character. You know, it’s very. Anybody I’ve spoken with in health care is describing the idea that, man, that’s, that’s what it’s like. So part of what I, think a lot of leaders deal with, either in their own lives or in the lives of the leaders they work with, is something you just posted on LinkedIn recently, which I wanted to talk to you about.

Bill Berthel

What was that?

Jeremiah Poulsen

Because it’s actually been on my mind and I didn’t have language for it.

Bill Berthel

Okay.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And I read it and I was like this, yes, that’s helpful language. And so, I won’t, I’m not going to try to put the words in your mouth, but you wrote something about a Fast Company article and the term brilliant jerk.

Bill Berthel

Yes, the title of Brilliant Jerk Policies caught my attention, which I think it was meant to. Right. It was a little catchy.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

I didn’t have that term quite either. I had a worse term for it for myself.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Where I sometimes, in my closest working relationships, I will ask for permission to be a bit of a jerk or a worse kind of a-hole. Can I be an a- hole for a minute?

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, I’ve actually heard you say that.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Because I want to be a jerk. I want to get into something a little edgy and I don’t want to be filtered in that. And the high trust relationships I have people give me permission. Like I’ll even sometimes hear, I don’t think you can be an a-hole. But it’s. What I’m doing is recognizing that I want to get into kind of an edgy conversation. This article suggested that some policies, being written in some organizations that’s taking quicker action for brilliant jerks because they’re harming teams and culture. And what a brilliant jerk looks like is someone who is an incredibly high performer, someone who everyone would point to and say they’re really smart, they have a lot to contribute. Maybe they’re a subject matter expert, they’re brilliant, but equally so they’re harmful or toxic in the environment, they’re also a jerk. And when that individual is in a leadership position or leadership role, the article suggested that that can sanction some of those unwanted behaviors in others around them, in others. So, good old fashioned, lead by example.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

If a leader is a brilliant jerk and the jerk side of it’s kind of the problem here. Right. Is what the policies are hedging against. Acting and behaving that way in the workplace as a leader can start to sanction that for others to follow suit.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. Especially if you’re in a position of power, authority, responsibility.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Jeremiah Poulsen

You’re demonstrating what will be repeated. I think it’s a great idea to build policies for these kinds of things for clarity of expectation organizationally. But it’s a bit like the carrot and the stick. Or is the carrot and the stick at the same time you act this way, you get. You’re allowed to move into higher levels of responsibility or maintain it. You don’t act this way or you act away outside of these parameters of the policy, now you’re punished as a result. Stick. And my experience is that legislating behavior like that is not as effective as promoting internal. And this kind of goes back to the intrinsic motivation because carrots and sticks can be valuable, sure. But am I as a leader who might consider myself a brilliant jerk, am I internally motivated to make a shift and why? So the policy can bring that to light. But if I’m only functioning to meet the standard of the policy, then I’m not really getting the most juice. Most juice for the squeeze. I’m, I’m thinking about the individuals. I’m going back to The Pit. Right?

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And in that show there’s all kinds of levels of brilliant jerkiness. and so there’ll be moments where an orthopedic specialist or an orthopedic surgeon walks in and, and they’re just blasting people with like telling them how, you know, ignorant they are, how, how, you know, forceful communication of what people don’t know, they don’t know. And m. Treating them what we. What I would say jerky in that moment, but in the episode Brilliant orthopedic surgeon.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Like they’re, they’re clearly saying like, this is the person you want doing this surgery. And so deal with it. Just, just. There’s a toleration there of just dealing with the jerk because he’s also brilliant key differentiator here.

Bill Berthel

So being clear and directive when needed is not being a jerk.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Good point.

Bill Berthel

So I think a lot of folks worry about or wonder about where is that line and like how thin or thick is it? What can I step into? So I could imagine. I don’t work in health care, never have. I play a doctor on tv. Right. Was that a steel joke? Right. I can imagine there are times where emotions are high, stakes are high. the brilliance comes in play and it could challenge the filtering, the emotional social intelligence being applied. Being clear and directive is not being a jerk. Tearing someone down, personalizing it.

Bill Berthel

Making someone uncomfortable, anything close to bullied. That kind of space harassment, absolute in the jerk category. So get that. Give me this. Do that now. Clear, concise, not jerk.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So urgency is not jerk.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Urgency is not hostility.

Bill Berthel

Not at all. Especially when needed. Certain environments. Right. Certain situations absolutely call for it. So sometimes I think just the station or the seat of a higher level of leadership makes it hard for some people to give feedback. I mean, so I, I hear you, but I’m wondering, is that an indicator of my brilliant jerkiness or is that my seat in my role? Some people won’t give the boss. Feedback. How do I know if I’m being a jerk or if I’m just in that seat of perceived power that’s hard to give feedback to.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. So, I think that some of the more obvious ones are people crying when they walk away.

Bill Berthel

From me, and not tears of joy?

Jeremiah Poulsen

No, not tears of joy. Are people, because of my interaction with them, talking to other people about how hard it is to connect with me? Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Is there clear evidence, once I experience this and take a step back from the moment, is there clear evidence that people around me are having trouble working with me?

Bill Berthel

Yeah. So am I missing some of those cues? I tune into the difficulty that some folks might be having with me. Yeah, yeah. What else can I do?

Jeremiah Poulsen

I think it’s also because this is a space of. And I’ll say it, this might sound too harsh, but it’s a blind spot, It’s a blindness. So even as we’re talking about it, I feel like, I’m not a brilliant jerk, but I’m wondering where it is. And so to say, I would say, are there people actually telling you that you’re overly harsh, you’re attacking and you’re going, nah, I’m fine, this is who I am, this is what I do and making the adjustment internally for it. So it might be that people are already giving you the feedback and the signals that you’re overly harsh, overly personally attacking and you’re just blowing them off. So there could be very present, aware signals of it that you’re ignoring.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. I know you’ve, I know you’ve dealt with this. I’m going to ask you what would you tell the leader that that maybe says, you know what? I don’t. My intention isn’t to be a jerk, but I need my people stronger. I need my people to be more resilient. I’m not just going to go easy on them.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. So I’m a firm believer in start with self awareness. So if I, if I’m my eyes are outside looking at what other people need and I want to, as a leader, make a meaningful difference of either competency or commitment in their lives, then I want to pay attention to how I’m showing up with them and the way that I can pay attention to how I’m showing up is to grow my vocabulary and my awareness around my state of being or my disposition when I’m with them. So, this seems like it’s disconnected, but I, but I think it is strongly that those who are, those who are most often in that space that we’re calling brilliant jerks, are highly technically proficient and have spent a lot of time in their years of work, whether we’ve talked about health care, whether it’s in tech or some other industry or sector.

Bill Berthel

Sure.

Jeremiah Poulsen

They’ve spent a lot of time working on those skills and a little time, if any, developing the vocabulary and the recognition of the feeling side of the, the human experience.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So I think that there’s a really important starting point for anybody to say to take some time to recognize what’s how their experience of the event was and do some work with that. So in real terms it would be taking 10 minutes and just thinking back about the event that caused distress for you.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

in the past 24 hours. And what was the experience? What was verifiable? What, what was I feeling amidst that moment? What caused it? What was I feeling? And what’s it like to experience that without trying to fix it first?

Bill Berthel

Oh, interesting.

Jeremiah Poulsen

What, what’s it like to experience it without trying to do anything different?

Bill Berthel

Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Just be present in that and play around with your language there. Because, you know, I don’t know if this was in Susan David’s work, emotional agility. but I, I’ve heard that the average person stops growing their emotional vocabulary around 10 years old.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

so giving ourselves awareness first and then vocabulary second, or at the same time then sets us up to when we are interacting with that individual who we’re recognizing as a lower level of competence or an issue with their commitment. Now we’re at least a little bit more fully informed on how we’re showing up. And how they might be showing up. So others awareness and the management of other people begins with self awareness and the management of myself.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So that’s why I go back to that with leaders is if you find yourself in that place where you’re being take. Miss. Maybe you’re being misinterpreted, maybe you’re being misunderstood. Well, take responsibility first for your own state of being. How, how did that show up for you? Grow your vocabulary so that you can have a calm conversation with somebody about it. Now that’s outside the operating room. Right. If we’re going back to the example, there’s trauma situations that happen fast and you said it well earlier. There’s moments that are happening so quick those filters come out. Well, to build muscle memory towards those moments, we have to start in the calm moments, creating those new neural pathways for the information to transfer from our heart to our head and from our head to our mouth and so. Or our action, our whole body. So how do I take the time necessary to be present with myself so that when those trauma moments happen or those high intensity urgency moments happen, I’ve built the routine to be able to communicate in a way with other people that’s not so personally offensive.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely. So I want to share with you that I found this article doing just a little bit of research in preparation for designing a new custom offering for a client. Well, it’s called balanced leadership. Okay, Right. So the idea of balanced leadership is taking both the emotional and social intelligence aspects of, well, humanity. But in leadership, along with psychological safety, building teams that can actually disagree. Really? Well.

Bill Berthel

That can, that can actually argue successfully. Right. That you have that sense of collegiate debate, really wrestling with something that’s difficult. Right. It’s not soft stuff. Right. This isn’t to be mistaken with not being nice or just being kind. It’s not, it’s actually holding the space to really get into it. And then when you leave that space, you haven’t harmed the relationship or the team at all. If anything, you’ve actually strengthened the culture.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

And so the article caught me because of the title. Right. As I shared earlier, I didn’t have that term before, but this was really about not ejecting the brilliant jerks. Ask them to rely more on their brilliance and work on the jerkiness. Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So where do we land the plane for this conversation? What do you think everybody needs to know?

Bill Berthel

Well, I think if you’re in a leadership role to do a little bit of a, inventory or self check, you know, where might I be showing up as a brilliant jerk? where might I understand that blind spot of myself? Yeah. Could be actively asking for the feedback. Cause I agree with you if you’re not getting that feedback. But I think sometimes it’s hard to get the feedback as the leader. It’s not as readily available. And so perhaps, you know, go after soliciting that feedback, asking for it. I think if you are a brilliant jerk, you’re still gonna not get the feedback. Cause how would I give it to you if you’re. So that might be an indicator as you ask for it and you’re getting nothing. Don’t necessarily take that as, oh, I’m in the clear.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, good point.

Bill Berthel

I think you got to find those folks that are willing to push you a little bit, nudge you and take the risk with you as the leader to say, hey, look, you know, I know you’re my manager. You are asking for this. I think there are times where you could xyz. Right. Be a little different in your performance.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So I think, you know, get the feedback. Ask for the feedback.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Very well said. I’m. I’m thinking of back to the. Where we started with the conversation around the pit, you know, And I almost want to tell every leader, I gotta watch that show.

Bill Berthel

I’ve been watching. I gotta watch.

Jeremiah Poulsen

It sounds like we’re not sponsored by the show.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Creators. But it. It turns on my. The idea of paying attention closely to the environment around you. Right.

Bill Berthel

I think so.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Pay close attention to what’s going on around you and within you. And oftentimes people are not moving to that place out of maliciousness or some kind of maniacal desire to make people suffer.

Bill Berthel

They usually want something better.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Right.

Bill Berthel

They’re usually contributing at a high level.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Just without the necessary, I don’t want to say filters, because it’s not just filtered. It’s without the necessary, emotional, and social intelligence in the moment.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. So the reason I think back to the show is everybody has one thought in mind. Get that person safe. Get that person on. On the bed.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Safe, healthy, and whole.

Bill Berthel

Primary mission, for sure.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So we all have the same mission, and that may be very well the case for everybody. But have I, as the leader, thought through the impact of that on behalf of the other people around the table?

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Jeremiah Poulsen

What does it mean to them to have that patient live? What does it mean for them to have this be a good experience for the patient? So alignment on the goal and then, clarity on the impact of the goal.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Hey, as always, thanks for conversation.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. Thank you. It was a great time.

Bill Berthel

Always fun. Thank you for being here today, and we hope you picked something up from this episode that you can apply and we hope you’re looking forward to more. Thanks for being here.