Trust in Times of Turmoil

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

 

Welcome. I’m Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent Podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the 20 plus years of our business, it is that leadership is a continued conversation.

 

We’re glad you’re here. Newell, thank you for this conversation today already. I know this is going to be phenomenal. We go back. I don’t know if it’s way back, but we go back. You’re actually my first coach, and I am so honored to have you on the podcast.

 

I think we said it earlier together, no matter what we do, we have fun. But we’re going to talk about a semiserious topic today: trust.

 

We both value trust. We both train and coach around trust. You recently wrote an article that really got my attention that I wanted you to speak to for our listeners. This idea of trust in times of turmoil.

 

I think most of us are feeling some level of volatility or uncertainty in our organizations. I love the word turmoil.

 

Tell me a little bit about why you wrote this article and why this topic resonates so deeply for you.

 

Newell Eaton

 

I’d be happy to.

 

Something has significantly changed. We bandy about the word change in the very nature of what we do. Sure, but it’s no longer a shift in degree, in my view. It’s a shift in kind.

 

What has happened, one of the labels we call it these days, is the polycrisis in the world. Certainly, at the time we’re having this conversation, it’s endemic all over the place.

 

You talk to anybody, and the level of anxiety and concern about the state of the world and the state of their organizations is at a higher point than I’ve ever experienced in my lifetime, particularly in more recent times and especially post COVID.

 

But it existed before that, as more and more teams are now in hybrid environments, so not everybody is in the same building.

 

In fact, in some cases, I’m working with one group that is a virtual team. They’ve never been in the same office.

 

Bill Berthel

 

They’ve never met. They’ve never really shown up together.

 

Newell Eaton

 

They may have met for a special meeting, but they don’t work together regularly.

 

More and more organizations are facing the question: How do you make a team work in that context? How do you onboard somebody in that context?

 

When you have this larger crisis of uncertainty going on in the world at large, you’ve got all this volatility in organizations.

 

How many organizations are you working with today that you may have worked with a couple of years ago where the members of the team have changed?

 

Bill Berthel

 

Oh, absolutely.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Or the leadership of the team has changed.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah, sure. So the environment matters. The context matters. Even just the natural attrition and churn of teams.

 

Newell Eaton

 

A lot of the work that I’m finding myself excited about and that is needed is helping leaders and their teams develop trust.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah.

 

Newell Eaton

 

As well as the big word we use these days, psychological safety, which for me is a precursor to trust.

 

If you don’t feel safe, and even physically safe, particularly when I hear some women leaders talk about their experiences, they don’t always feel physically safe. That’s an even more fundamental issue.

 

Bill Berthel

 

You need to feel like…

 

Newell Eaton

 

You could be physically safe in the environment.

 

Physically safe, of course. Then trust.

 

We have the book here, The Thin Book of Trust by Charles Feltman. On the way here today, I was listening to a wonderful podcast between Charles and Brené Brown.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Oh, yeah.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Many people are familiar with Brené’s work.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Absolutely.

 

Newell Eaton

 

She’s adopted Charles’s definition of trust and distrust.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Okay.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Trust is being willing to be vulnerable with someone about something that matters to you.

 

Bill Berthel

 

That is a definition of trust.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah, yeah. What’s the definition of mistrust? Lack of trust or mistrust?

 

Newell Eaton

 

Well, it’s kind of the reverse of that. You’re really afraid to share something because you think it might not be accepted.

 

Bill Berthel

 

So I feel that fear or resistance, and I don’t share. I don’t speak up. I don’t say something or do something.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly. Your status might be affected, or your identity, or how you want to be seen on the team, or even at home.

 

Bill Berthel

 

So it’s a form of self-protection.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly right.

 

If that’s present, let’s say you’ve got a really wild, crazy idea. Then you look around and think, “I’m not going to say it.”

 

Bill Berthel

 

I’m not doing it here.

 

Newell Eaton

 

I might lose status. I might lose credibility. All those kinds of things.

 

I love that definition of trust because it’s foundational.

 

It’s interesting to think about what is known as the vulnerability paradox of leadership.

 

Bill Berthel

 

The vulnerability paradox. Tell me about that.

 

Newell Eaton

 

It basically means that the old notion was that a leader, especially when there were crises going on, should keep everything to themselves and make everybody feel good.

 

Well, that doesn’t demonstrate that you’re trustworthy because you’re withholding information.

 

People feel that.

 

Bill Berthel

 

It sanctions withholding.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

 

Bill Berthel

 

So I’ll withhold too, even subconsciously.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Or I start wondering, “What can I really trust?”

 

We can get into how it shows up in our facial expressions, our voice, and all that good stuff.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Of course.

 

I was wondering if you were going to go to the place where vulnerability itself is seen as weakness. So don’t show it.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Well, that’s the old macho approach.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Yet when you think about leaders who are really successful, depending on how you define success, they build teams of people who take ownership and initiative.

 

To do that, you need to demonstrate that you trust them.

 

That means you need to be willing to share things with them that you might not have shared in the past.

 

Bill Berthel

 

What are you telling leaders and teams to do to make sure self-care is there?

 

I know this is going to sound fundamental, but I need to hear it again.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Okay.

 

We’ll talk about it another time in more detail, but I start with: How do you begin your day?

 

Affirmations.

 

Basic things like that.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Then it’s questions like: How are you managing your diet?

 

Bill Berthel

 

How are you eating?

 

Newell Eaton

 

That’s a big one.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Absolutely.

 

What we’re putting into our bodies matters.

 

Newell Eaton

 

How much sleep are you getting?

 

How are you getting quality sleep?

 

That’s core.

 

Then, when you’re stressed, what do you do with that stress?

 

We’ll have a whole separate conversation about that.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Those are good questions for our listeners to be pondering.

 

If they’re not practicing self-care, which I think is pretty fundamental, those are great questions to be asking.

 

What’s next after self-care?

 

Newell Eaton

 

Another form of self-care is pausing and listening throughout the day.

 

When you’re on a Zoom call, you don’t have to answer immediately when someone asks a question.

 

Slow it down.

 

I often refer to music because I used to play music.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Right. You do.

 

Newell Eaton

 

On sheet music there are things called breath marks.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah.

 

Newell Eaton

 

For singing and other musical activities, they indicate where you take a breath.

 

How do you create those breath marks throughout your day?

 

Between meetings.

 

Between tasks.

 

Whenever you complete something.

 

How do you pause?

 

Maybe stand up if you’ve been sitting.

 

Refresh yourself for a moment.

 

Bill Berthel

 

You’re making me think about where those breath marks might be in my day.

 

Where can I insert them?

 

Or maybe discover them more naturally?

 

I had a client recently, a brilliant young man who loved Sherlock Holmes.

 

He was getting feedback from his team that he wasn’t listening enough. They felt he wasn’t spending enough time listening.

 

So I asked him, “What does Sherlock Holmes do?”

 

He said, “He’s always able to see what’s not there.”

 

He notices the missing thing on the table or on the bookshelf.

 

I asked him how Holmes does that.

 

He said he thought Sherlock was naturally gifted.

 

Then he paused and said, “Actually, I think he just takes the time.”

 

That really struck me.

 

Sometimes trust comes from taking the time to notice not only what is there, but what isn’t there.

 

The clues that exist and the clues that are missing.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Right.

 

Bill Berthel

 

And that builds trust, doesn’t it?

 

It builds capability with your team, just like it helps solve the crime in the analogy.

 

Paying attention.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Paying attention creates opportunity.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Observing is a form of listening with your eyes.

 

Newell Eaton

 

That’s right.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Paying attention is listening with your eyes.

 

I love that.

 

Newell Eaton

 

And all the senses matter.

 

Bill Berthel

 

All the senses matter.

 

What else belongs in the “build trust during times of turmoil” bucket?

Newell Eaton

 

One thing is making sure you spend time with each person on the team.

 

The people who are further away, particularly if they’re new to the team, may actually need more time and attention.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Yeah. So equitable, not necessarily equal.

 

It may require different amounts of support.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly. At least initially.

 

Another thing is buddy systems.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Absolutely.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Whether it’s a mentor or a buddy, it’s important to have someone who has been around and can help fill in the gaps.

 

Those are big ones.

 

The other thing I love is finding ways to play together, even online.

 

Bill Berthel

 

I love it.

 

Newell Eaton

 

I work a lot with the video gaming industry.

 

They’re constantly creating things.

 

How can teams create games they can play together and learn from together?

 

In the process of playing, people begin to see each other in new ways. They become more vulnerable. They show up differently.

 

I actually got that idea from the Navy SEALs.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Wow.

 

You went from video game development to Navy SEALs.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Yeah.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Both groups, both cultures, require play.

 

Newell Eaton

 

That’s right.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Tell me about play with the Navy SEALs.

 

Newell Eaton

 

They engage in very intense forms of play.

 

Through those experiences, they learn about each other’s vulnerabilities and how to function as a team.

 

The games have to create equal footing.

 

Everyone has an equal role.

 

Power becomes flat.

 

The leaders are no longer leaders within the game. Everyone participates as equals.

 

There are a lot of activities like that.

 

Bill Berthel

 

That makes me think about board games.

 

You quickly learn a lot about people through their style of play and communication.

 

You learn how they approach challenges and how they enjoy the experience.

 

There’s a tremendous amount of learning that comes through play.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Absolutely.

 

Bill Berthel

 

And creativity comes from play.

 

There’s collaborative play and parallel play.

 

Newell Eaton

 

One of my favorite online team building tools is improv.

 

Bill Berthel

 

I love it.

 

Newell Eaton

 

During COVID, a colleague and I facilitated a series called Discovering Yourself Through Improv.

 

I loved doing it.

 

There is so much available online if you simply search for improv games.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Years ago, I took a team to Second City in Toronto for an improv class.

 

We quickly learned how bad we were at improv.

 

We just couldn’t flow.

 

One of the key rules of improv is simply saying yes to what comes next.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

 

Bill Berthel

 

You’re creating an on ramp for the next person.

 

It was surprisingly easy to stop the next person instead.

 

We really had to practice creating space for each other.

 

When we came out of that experience, we trusted each other more.

 

The ride home from Toronto was more fun than the ride there.

 

The work we did afterward was more innovative.

 

We approached challenges differently because we were serving one another and creating opportunities for each other instead of looking for what was wrong.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

 

Bill Berthel

 

It’s fascinating what improv can do.

 

Speaking of improv, I know you have a practical tool leaders can use with their teams.

 

Newell Eaton

 

I do.

 

One of the simplest is called Two Words.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Two Words.

 

Newell Eaton

 

The way it works is this.

 

Even though we’re all in little boxes on a Zoom screen, you establish an order.

 

I ask people to draw a circle and place everyone’s name around it as if they were sitting in a circle.

 

Then everyone knows the sequence.

 

The first person says two words.

 

The next person has to use one of those words and add another word.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Oh, my goodness.

 

Okay.

 

Newell Eaton

 

For example, if I said, “toy boat.”

 

Bill Berthel

 

Fishing boat.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Fishing line.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Phone line.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Phone call.

 

See how it works?

 

Bill Berthel

 

I love this.

 

It reminds me of an improv game I used to play with my son in the car.

 

We would tell a story together, but each person could only contribute one word at a time.

 

The story became completely unpredictable.

 

It got silly.

 

You never knew where it was going.

 

What it really taught us was trust.

 

You had to create the next on ramp for the other person.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

 

That’s why it’s one of my favorites.

 

Bill Berthel

 

That’s awesome.

 

So where do we go from here with trust?

Newell Eaton

 

Every situation is different.

 

Organizations change constantly.

 

People come and go.

 

Leaders change.

 

Priorities shift.

 

The question becomes: How do I keep trust alive on my team?

 

How do I handle broken promises?

 

How do I practice forgiveness?

 

When trust is broken, how do I rebuild it?

 

A lot of it comes down to naming what happened.

 

Being vulnerable enough to say, “I’m sorry.”

 

Then asking, “What are we going to do differently so this doesn’t happen again?”

 

Those conversations matter.

 

And it’s not just at work.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Right.

 

Newell Eaton

 

It’s at home, too.

 

Bill Berthel

 

I think you’d agree that everything we learn in the workplace works in our communities and works in our homes.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Exactly.

 

Bill Berthel

 

We often separate personal and professional, but we’re really whole people.

 

You can’t completely dissect one from the other.

 

In many ways, trying to do that creates an energy leak.

 

I’m not suggesting being personally inappropriate in the workplace.

 

That’s different.

 

But the skills we’re talking about are universal.

 

They help you become a better community member.

 

A better volunteer.

 

A better spouse.

 

A better parent.

 

Trust matters everywhere.

 

Newell, thank you.

 

Thank you for this conversation.

 

Newell Eaton

 

We could do this for another two hours, but this feels just right.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Awesome.

 

Newell Eaton

 

Thank you for inviting me.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Thank you.

 

Newell Eaton

 

This was really fun.

 

Bill Berthel

 

Thank you.

 

Thank you for being here today.

 

We hope you picked up something from this episode that you can apply in your own life and leadership.

 

And we hope you’re looking forward to more conversations ahead.

 

Thanks for being here.