Retreat

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel:
Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. The Get Emergent podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve performance of their leadership and those that they lead. We hope to provide concepts and ideas you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. And we hope you find some better practices to apply immediately. I’m Bill Berthel and today I’m honored to have as my guest Troy Evans. Troy is a friend, a past participant in many of our programs including LeadFORWARD which we’re going to talk a little bit about today because it has that component of a retreat and he’s the co-owner of the beautiful VanderKamp property in Cleveland, New York. Troy, welcome.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, thank you Bill. I’m really excited to be here. Can’t wait to start the discussion.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah, I am to Troy. I love every conversation we have. Today we’re going to focus a little bit on retreats and the value of retreating. You have a vested interest in this because you own the beautiful piece of property in Cleveland, New York called VanderKamp, which is a beautiful retreat center. Tell us a little bit about that.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, so it’s something that has grown to be a passion, this idea of retreating and it’s mainly grown from VanderKamp. So VanderKamp is an 850-acre kind of forest to venue out in Cleveland, New York that it really is a different world. It’s only a half hour from Syracuse, but it’s a property that we are trying to develop into this retreat place for all kinds of people. For individuals just looking for solo retreat experiences, for couples who want to retreat and build their relationship, for families to do the same, for businesses to check out of their normal day to day routine and go to work on complex problems and strategies or just build relationships within teams, even for a wedding ceremony. Just the idea of a collaborative union of souls that’s just done in a different way. But all center around this idea of creating a really mindful and peaceful place with a lot of space to act differently than you may in your normal day to day routine with all its complicated inputs. That’s the dream, that’s what we’re working on, and it’s so far been really well received. So that’s where we’re at.

Bill Berthel:
It is beautiful. I think we’ve been retreating there with you for two years now; I think in our LeadFORWARD program. And I remember the first time driving onto the property and you know, kind of stepping foot on the property and I love the Adirondacks I love the solitude you can get in that space. This is only 30 minutes from Syracuse. It feels like you’re in the middle of the ad. It feels like to get that experience; I would have had to have drove four hours away. I only drove like 30 minutes away and got away.

Troy Evans:
Yeah. We get that a lot. Truthfully. It’s so vast and it’s not a big place. We have five lodges. We have 20 different rooms right now. It’s intentionally small so that you have that experience of like, stepping back in time a little bit. You go there and you can wander through the woods. You’re not going to see a soul. Just animals, no people. The Adirondacks now are becoming crowded. I’m from the Catskills. They’re becoming pretty populated. You go on a hike; you’re going to pass a lot of folks. This is different. This isn’t about conquering a mountain either. Or the Adirondacks have this, Let’s hike all the 46 peaks. This is more of like, let’s just wander through the woods and get lost. And there’s a cool tree over there. Let’s walk towards that. I’m, out to accomplish something. I’m not out to conquer the mountain place.

Bill Berthel:
Which is really perfect for retreating.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, right.

Bill Berthel:
The purpose and the value of a retreat is to be able to get that time away and be a little bit more in contemplation, be more in reflection than doing. It’s a more about being. Right. It’s a being exercise more than a doing exercise.

Troy Evans:
You nailed it. And I think you kind of nailed the definition of a retreat versus, like a vacation. So something that we’re trying to clarify is, vacations are great. They are very valuable, but they’re different than a retreat. But just I think hopefully something we can develop to be as similarly as important. Everybody takes a vacation every year. Everybody takes. You get two weeks, whatever, you’re going on vacation. And we’d like to implement the thought in people’s mind to like, no, I need a retreat every quarter too. Which is something where it has a little more intention. It’s not about going to Disney World and doing a bunch of stuff with your family, which is super valuable. But this is a different element. It is more about reflection. Maybe it’s about. Even with family, it has some space to it. It’s about collectively going to a place, stepping away, seeing what comes up for you. So that sort of escape instead of the vacation, the typical vacation route. So well said. You nailed it.

Bill Berthel:
No and I like that distinction of like I could imagine having been there, take a lovely vacation there. But that’s not really the intended use of the space. It’s less about doing more about being. It’s about self-discovery. I’m hearing in that, the way you’re describing it, Troy, like some self-discovery.

Troy Evans:
Opportunities, probably it’s really up to the customer. It’s really, I think to make it very generic. It’s about stepping away from something, say like a busy world, to step towards something which is say a relationship built or contemplation of self or just business strategy. So that equation, it helps me frame it for myself. It’s a vacation really just going away. This is more about stepping away intentionally from something that you want to step away from. And it could be you want to step away from a relationship or toxic something to toward something else. So that’s how we’re structuring it and framing the wording around it.

Bill Berthel:
So what have you and your team learned about retreating and retreats, leading the development or maybe the revitalization of this space? What have you learned?

Troy Evans:
Well, I think the cool thing is we have learned that this is a massive human need. So when we VanderKamp, it was really going to be kind of like a hotel, just a forest getaway where people just ran a really cool log cabin in the middle of the woods. And that seemed attractive for me include. I would like to go to a place like that. So we grafted it and that was three and a half years ago. What our customer has been experiencing there and telling us all along the way is like, yeah, that’s exactly what we need. But the why is becoming a little bit clearer. We started just running a lot to families and couples. They would go there, then have these experiences where they could just detox. We heard the same thing that you said. Whereas it just feels different there. It just feels peaceful and calm. And all the things I’m seeking of that slowing down element are there naturally with really without us doing anything. We can’t take any credit for that. It’s just the trees there, the old trees. And there’s a big lake on the property that’s all private. And it feels like you just borrow the place for a couple days because you’re not going to run into any other people, maybe a few others. But it really feels like it’s yours and you’re there. So listening to our customer, they were telling us why they were going there, and it had to do with that. Then we got you guys up there and to do a corporate retreat setting and a leadership retreat and the feedback we got from you and since you, we’ve done at least 50 to 60 retreats similar to your since we started. But this idea of we can really do the work here, whatever the work is for you because of that element of safety and freedom and space that you can’t get, just going to a regular hotel maybe or in your normal day to day office routine, it really feels like it’s a place where you can spark some wisdom for yourself or create this curiosity. To answer your question, it’s just something that our customer told us that this place should be. And since then it’s become clear as we do we read a lot about retreating and like what’s the value of it? Where does it come from? And I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s like a basic human need that we have forgot about. If you imagine yourself seeing this picture of a cabin on the Swiss Alps, it’s this beautiful cabin with a porch and you just imagine yourself sitting on that porch looking over say a vast mountain view all by yourself, that invokes a feeling that is ancient. It’s this idea of the hermit life of the Stoics, even the Buddhist monk mentality of escaping to the woods to contemplate this is old stuff. And it’s only the last 200 years where we’ve gotten so busy with our inputs that we don’t do that as much most of us. And now I think especially for our customers that we’re seeing come up there, they’re seeing the value in it, and they’re reminded. Yeah, that’s what I need. I need that feeling of sitting on that fictionary porch in the middle of nowhere. That’s where I’m go going toa really do some deep work.

Bill Berthel:
There’s so much in just that passage you just shared right there Troy, that I want to tease into a little bit. So the one piece that really stuck with me you just shared is that it’s a little bit like borrowing the space for a little while. And there is something about the environment in which we’re in that when we choose to retreat or we choose to perhaps contemplate, not do but be and contemplate, that environment really matters, doesn’t it?

Troy Evans:
Yeah, I think so. And it doesn’t even have to be super complicated. Like for example, have you ever been to a coffee shop that’s different, say in a different city or something and you walk in there and it’s like Different. Different energy. Like different people. I don’t know anybody here. It feels cool for me. That’s where I do some of my best work. My element. It’s like, oh, wow, this is awesome. It can be as simple as that. To retreat for two hours to a unique, inspiring, energetic space for VanderKamp. It ties into that. Maybe there’s an element there that has just natural energy or whatever the word is you want to use that M sets that stage, out of your element, out of your daily routine. Space.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah. I love that. And I love that you shared the idea of energy. Right. Cause I think I’ve almost felt a little bit guilty every time I’ve borrowed space. Whether that be at, VanderKamp or other places I’ve been able to retreat. I do take away energy. I get a new experience with energy. Something emerges. Not to play on words of our brand, but something does emerge. Right. And I get to take that away with me. New ideas, new concepts. So while I borrow the time, I borrow the space, I borrow the environment, I do get to take away some pretty cool stuff from that.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, but that’s what it’s for. If you think about the physics of, it. Energy can’t be created, can’t be destroyed. It can be transferred. Right. So energy comes into that place somehow and it comes out and that’s all right. Just like the sun. The sun’s cranking energy down to Earth. Which is a fascinating quick tangent, but how much energy do you think the Earth uses of the sun?

Bill Berthel:
Oh, it probably reflects and refracts more than it actually uses. Right.

Troy Evans:
It’s actually equal. So you would think, I always think, like, oh, we’re using 20% of the energy and then it’s a complete wash. All the energy comes in and then it goes out back into the universe. So there’s no creation or destruction of the energy sense. You’re just using it and transferring it. So it’s similar to a place like that. there’s no other way. That’s it. You can’t keep it. You can’t keep the energy. Otherwise the Earth would get too hot. You kept all the energy. You would have major global warming keep too much has to release it. So it’s similar to VanderKamp.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah. So I love that I won’t get the same kind of energy I will get from being in my daily routine. Whether that’s pretty chill routine or if it’s a complicated hectic routine, changing it up offers this opportunity for a different energy to Be experienced.

Troy Evans:
Yeah. And I think you were spot on with emergent and emergence. Like, I love that concept for like whatever it is you get out of a place like that is, something emerges out of the new environment that is out of chaos or something like that.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah. An emergent property is the result of energy having an experience.

Troy Evans:
M. Right.

Bill Berthel:
So, retreating is a different way of having an experience with energy. Right. Which is, I think really important to us, especially if many of us are into the. You said it really nicely. I don’t want to mess up the way you said, but I think you said, however, we’re managing all of our inputs like immediately. I went to. Things are busy, my device, my phone, responsibilities. Right. Whatever those inputs are.

Troy Evans:
Yeah.

Bill Berthel:
Retreating gives us an opportunity to what, reframe that relationship. What is it? What’s happening?

Troy Evans:
Yeah, I think I look at that as an equation too. So we would say basically, you’re getting all these inputs a normal day and then you’re responding. That’s how all of us humans operate. We get these inputs, we got to respond, and we move on. What we’re trying to do is put space between the input and the response. That’s where wisdom lies, I think, in my opinion, is when you can take all your inputs but don’t respond right away. Let’s reflect. Think thoughtfully about, obviously you can’t do this with everything but the bigger things in your life. My opinion, be responding too quickly, so you get this input. Right now I need space to reflect and contemplate. So I put space between the input and the response equals wisdom. I think that’s how I would equate that in our world.

Bill Berthel:
I love that it’s what Viktor Frankl said, if we create the space between stimuli and response, we have choice. I love the way you’re sharing that space is where wisdom exists or lives or opportunity for wisdom. I’m sure I’ve had that space, and I haven’t been too wise before, but I like the opportunity for wisdom there.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it’s always easy to say it’s relevant in our times. Of course it’s busy times, but it feels like a basic human endeavor. Even back the Stoic days of Plato, those guys contemplated a lot, even in just as many inputs, probably as we did. They were different. They weren’t cell phones or whatever, but they’re political or whatever they were. So that’s ancient. That idea of creating this space is where the real good stuff happens. That’s why you still talk about these Guys, that’s why you still talk about Einstein. That’s why you still talk about Plato and Marcus Aurelius, Jesus, the greats of the past. They thought. They thought.

Bill Berthel:
Your point is they too were living in whether it’s complex or complicated times too. Yes, it feels busy differently, but it’s kind always been that way.

Troy Evans:
I think so. That’s my opinion. Because you always hear your parents say, oh, it was way better back then. I think they’ve been saying that the beginning of time. I bet people 200 years ago wish that they lived 200 years before that because it was easier, it was less complicated. I’IMAGINED that. Most people say that a lot may think it’s a fairly recent idea, but it seems like around.

Bill Berthel:
I bet you’re right. I bet that’s been kind a, testimony of the generations. What is it about this idea of complexity or. It does feel complicated. I’m not going to lie. Things feel kind of heavy.

Troy Evans:
Yeah. They definitely, probably are. I think that brings up the idea of complicated versus complex problems, which you and I have probably talked about before.

Bill Berthel:
Dig into that. What’s the difference?

Troy Evans:
Well, I would say a complicated problem is something with an answer. A mechanical machine, like a fax machine or a Ferrari or something like that. It’s a complicated thing. I don’t understand it, but somebody does. Somebody knows. I put in this input; I get this output. It’s predictable. It’s a complicated machine, but it knows its inputs and outputs. Whereas a lot of the problems we deal with today and even in the past are complex. So they’re more chaotic, they’re more undetermined. Like the Brazilian rainforest. You put in an input; you get something out. You have no idea. Economies are like that. You don’t know what these levers are going to do. They’re so complicated. There are so many, different inputs and different. The butterfly effect is another way to explain that. You don’t know if a butterfly flaps its wing, Texas, it creates a tornado in Taiwan or whatever. These are so complicated and so chaotic that there’s no answer. And to go back to retreating is one of the values of retreat. Whether that’s a physical retreat or a mental retreat is that’s the problems you have to work on because you really have to let the answer emerge. Back to the emergent thing. It emerges out of that chaos. You’ll see weather patterns start predicting themselves and economies start, okay, I can see where we’re going here. But you need to have those answers emerge for you out of deep thought and out of that contemplative approach to things. Otherwise what we tend to do is we treat complex problems like complicated problems. Like oh I know what’s happening here. We’ll do this. That’s a quick answer. I see we’ve seen this before. A million times. We did this and then this happened. Even though you’re talking about the rainforest. No, that was five minutes ago. You’re in a whole different world now. To treat a complex problem like a complicated one is probably more dangerous than not taking the time and slowing down than the not.

Bill Berthel:
So it’s exactly the reason we moved our retreat part of LeadFORWARD from you know this our listeners might not. We used to do three overnight retreats and we’re now doing one five-day four-night retreat. You know this research better than that? I do but most people need two to three days away before they’re willing to start thinking differently. something about that dwell time in the retreat that then it’s typically in the second or third day of the retreat. We’re going to bring in very different ways of thinking for leaders. More both and mindsets. So we’re not problem solving, we’re managing polarities. Right. There’s some danger in treating everything like a problem to solve where we can start looking at different polls to manage meaning not opposites but complementary, seemingly almost paradoxical opposites. We need value from both. And how we put that into our leadership might be something like you how rigorous versus how flexible instead of verses it’s. And as a leader I need to be flexible and rigorous. Yeah, take some time in a retreat to get there though to be willing to think differently. Sorry,

Troy Evans:
You guys have always been great at that. I think we’re helping people. I think that’s for me one of the best things I’ve got out of working with you guys over the past is helping me think differently because we all. There’s no escaping and we get in our ruts; we get in our routines the same thought processes and never came up or it was always. Or for you to use your example there was always an ore scenario and never came up. And you guys help people get that and in there or let them know that that’s even an option. I think it’s important especially as we, you and I both like our place and all this. I think it’s really highlighted the value of retreats for people. I think for you guys we need that side of it. People need guides for these things. Like some people do where I need help, what I do on a retreat, what questions do I ask myself? What is the agenda to it? I think that’s where you guys are awesome. And I think it’s really cool to see how you’ve developed your changes to your system. Where it was one day in a retreat setting and now you’re going to five. I think the value of that is going to be cool, it’s going to be neat to see because I think what you touched on there was. There is some data and some analysis around. The more time spent, especially nature, the better. Basically physiologically, your mind, your breath, your health. There are all these interesting studies that have proven that that’s valuable. But then there’s also just the mental escape to it where I think Boyd Vary, who wrote he’s a lion tracker in Africa, he came up with this idea of modern civilization is three days deep. You can’t really escape modern civilization T until you’re gone from, it for three days he’ll go into the outposts of Africa. It won’t be until that third day that he really gets in touch with the land. He really is intuitive. Then he’s really seeing the cycles of nature. That is important. I think for a lot of people, me especially, I can relate to that. If you just go there for a day, it’s cool, it’s great. You get a lot out of it. But the third day you’re like, okay, I am checked out. That’s where you guys are hopefully going to tap into.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And part of that check out is to really be able to check in with yourself better and be able to check in with other ways of thinking and that sometimes it’s a deeper way of thinking in which the way you already think it might be better strategy, it might be better being than just doing. But yeah, that resonates really strongly with me that I hadn’t heard that that society’s three days deep. I’m thinking back to several times I’ve personally either vacationed or retreated away from society. And it was that third day where it was like, I’m not reaching for my cell phone anymore. Thinking about the problems or the challenges at home or at work. Yeah, I am more intuitive, like you said. That’s awesome. Yeah.

Troy Evans:
What’s cool is I didn’t know if it was true or not, but I’ve gotten to witness it with. Like I said, we’ve done a ton of retreats up there now and we’ve had multiple, groups come for that long Four or five days. And then we had a group in October that came. It was a bunch of young entrepreneurial companies and there was 15 of them. I think they came for four days. And the first day I get to watch. All right, we’re coming in. We’re all high energy. There are some type A personalities in there. There’s a little bit of stress involved, and things are. We got to get going. We got to get moving. Day two, you can see all right, we’re slowing down a little bit. But after that third day, oh, man, I can see people’s faces change. I can see their conversations change. The whole pace is just drastically different after that third, fourth day. It’s pretty cool. That’s where a lot of the good stuff happens. I got to start writing these things down with permission. But I’ve gotten to know a lot of these folks, and I can just see. And I want to document that change of day four. Here’s what they were saying at that point when they came in, and here’s where they are leaving. And the shift is pretty cool.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah. No, absolute. Absolutely. And like you, we’ve paid attention to and listened to the feedback of our clients in their request to have a more significant retreat, than what we’ve done in the past. So really, we’re really excited to be. I think we are retreating more appropriately, more effectively than, you know, the overnights were awesome. This, you know, five-day, four-night design is going to be much more impactful for our clients. So thank you for holding the space. Thank you for designing such amazing space. You’re a little humble in your description of it. It is stunning. It’s not roughing it, not roughing it.

Troy Evans:
We’ve got to meet people where they’re at.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah, but you can get into the wilderness with very few steps away from the beautiful facilities you’ve created there around the lake and, on the property. And not to scare people away. It’s an easy drive in ye CE phones still work there. It’s not scary. It’s a beautiful way to step into retreating.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, I think that’s kind of what we saw as our place in all of this. Like, there’s plenty of beautiful campgrounds and, like, just go to the woods and that’s a great way to do it. but I think that’s not where everyone is. Some people want to escape in a nicer environment. So we thought there was this need in this place where we have beautiful, inspiring indoor spaces that just untouched nature outside. That’s just something that we’re trying to provide that doesn’t exist in our area too much. But if your jam is to just go to the woods in a tent and tap into and retreat by yourself for three days, that is so cool. That’s awesome too. All for it.

Bill Berthel:
Absolutely.

Troy Evans:
I got a question for you. One of the things that I struggle with, and I think most people might, is permission. Permission to retreat. How do you navigate people leaders through that? Like I can’t go, I’m too busy or my team would think I’m on vacation or that kind of attitude.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s one we work with continuously. The two primary resources we are understandably defensive about in that space is time and money. Right. Most of our clients’ leaders are looking at being responsible to their budgets. So there’s a little bit about permission for you to spend your development dollars on you.

Troy Evans:
Yeah.

Bill Berthel:
How that makes an impact and ripples through your teams and organizations. And then the time, the time could be what do other people think I’m doing with this time will empower you to share what you’re doing with this time. Like have those clear conversations with your team. The why and the value of this time you’re investing in yourself and how you’re going to bring something back to the organization. And that time from family, I think is hard for a lot of folks. Right. Especially if we have a younger family or little ones at home, it can be a little challenging. I think each of us as individuals have to navigate that and figure out, you know, what that means to our families. We have designed in this extended retreat, purposeful connection time. So you call home or FaceTime with home. Yeah. we don’t want you totally unplugged. You love your families. You need to check in with the team at work. We get that. But let’s do it intentionally. That’s how we go at it. Troy, let’s be really intentional with the utilization of our resources, our time, our money and our energy.

Troy Evans:
Yeah, I like that. I think it’s that permission that we all need because not doing it is possibly more damaging than doing it to those relationships, even family. The going away adds the fondness, it adds that the missing them. That’s cool. It’s okay to miss people, but to not go away in, theory it be more damaging than going away. So it’s like creating that permission. This is me talking to myself by the way, creating that permission. We will all be better for this. This putting space between input and response. It’d all be better for it and encouraging your other family members or other business colleagues to do the same. This is valuable.

Bill Berthel:
I see it. And I think we can make the really clear request with one another to support us in that. That’s not asking for too much. And any one of us would reciprocate that in a second. Matter of fact, that’s usually a pivotal conversation with many leaders. If you had either a really high potential or a colleague that said, I wanted to do this thing, how would you support him or her to do that? And they come up with five ways to support them right away. So, how about asking for that for you? That’s harder, right? Yeah, that’s harder. Yeah. But how do we create that interdependency with one another? By making really clear support requests.

Troy Evans:
Something that, like, shocked me the other day. I was reading it was something around along the lines of, wouldn’t a good leader be able to go on a retreat? Wouldn’t that be the definition of a good leader? That you have the trust in your team and the resources and the system set up that you can step away, no problem, and work on the big stuff? That is the definition of a leader. I’m telling myself that that’s what we need to remind folks of.

Bill Berthel:
Absolutely. Troy, thank you so much. I know I can talk with you for days but thank you for this time. Thank you for your energy and your expertise here.

Troy Evans:
Cool, man. I loved it. This is so much fun. Can’t wait to see you again.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah, same. And we’ll do this again. We’ll do a part two or another topic. All right. All right.

Troy Evans:
I’ll have to read more books.

Bill Berthel:
Hey, folks, and thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you’re looking forward to more. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you pick something up, you’re going to apply to your leadership and your work. You know more about retreats. You want to get some more information on LeadFORWARD, let me know. I’m bill@getemergent.com. you can always reach out to support@getemergent.com as well. Thank you. Take care.