Leading Up

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership and team organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph today’s topic of leading up means a lot to me. You know, I’ve, in my past, and maybe still do to some extent, I hold back a little bit. You know, I’ve kind of bitten my tongue on a good idea or I won’t speak up. And it’s usually out of concern or even as strong as a fear. I’m afraid of the other person’s reaction, whether it’s my boss, whether that’s my partner, whether it’s my colleague. Right. I’m holding back.

Ralph Simone: I think it’s normal. I think we all do it to a certain extent, and I think part of it could be fear based. Part of it’s the power dynamic.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: In the context of the work we do with organizations, I think leading up can be a scary proposition because we don’t know how it’s going to land with our boss or we don’t know if it will be well received. But it’s a vital practice because what we know with our work with emotional intelligence, the higher up in an organization you go, the least amount of meaningful feedback you get. So how are you going to make good business decisions and choices if you don’t have all the information? So I think this is a vital practice to make people less uncomfortable. I’m not going to say make them comfortable. And I think part of leading up is leaning in the discomfort of sharing your perspective with whomever needs to hear it.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I like reframing it, maybe away from comfort, more towards more practiced. I might not get comfortable with it in the end, but more practice will provide more familiarity with this.

And can you unpack just for a second for me, this idea that the higher up in an organization you go, you may be getting less meaningful feedback? Is that what you said?

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think people hedge their bets. I think they’re reluctant, and this could be because of baggage they bring from other organizations, but I think they’re reluctant to let the emperor know that he or she has no clothes on. And it could be that the organization doesn’t have enough psychological safety.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. My kids challenged me on this because they said, dad, you seem to remember all these stories when you spoke up a lot. How about the times you didn’t. Obviously, those aren’t the stories I’m telling. I know there were plenty of times that I have bitten my tongue and that said something, but to what detriment? You know, I like to frame this from the enterprise perspective. Would the organization or enterprise suffer by me being cautious, by me being self protective? And I think early in my career, I think it was more naivete than courage. I think I tended to challenge things and speak up, almost regardless of who it was in front of me, if it didn’t make sense or if I didn’t think it needed to be done. And I think I was reasonably skilled at finding the right tone or key to bring these things up.

Bill Berthel: The example that comes to mind for me is a little extreme, but I think it applies here. It’s just post 911, and if we’re going to airports to fly, the slogans, the banners, the signs, reminded us all that if you see something, say something. Yeah, we needed permission to do that, didn’t we?

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And I think we did, and I think we do. And I think one of the things, if you’re a leader of an organization, and we believe everyone’s a leader, is what are you doing? Or what are you saying when you see things, what are you changing? What exists in your culture, either stated or unstated, that makes it more difficult for people to say something, to speak up. I mean, one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this today is that this seems to be something that many clients bring up in coaching conversations. They’ll even tiptoe around it before they’ll even cut to the chase around. You know, I have this issue with my boss. That sometimes is a long lead up, and it could be because they’re not quite trusting yet with me and their reluctance to put it in play. And in some cases, and I try not to judge it, because their reluctance is their reluctance. It almost seems like a fairly benign issue. It doesn’t even seem like it would be a showstopper. But there is this great reluctance to provide supervisors or bosses feedback, or even a resistance to make a request of them to do something differently.

Bill Berthel: What you’re touching on there for me, Ralph is this idea that perhaps with a coach or a trusted colleague, there’s a practice run. Saying it before saying, need to say, it could be a step to get us there.

Ralph Simone: I think there’s even a step before that.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, what’s up?

Ralph Simone: I found it’s worked out well with a few clients. I just have them write it out.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, good.

Ralph Simone: As if they were going to say it, but don’t say it yet. just get it on paper.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone: What is it that you’re asking or sharing? Why is it important? And what impact could it have on the organization or the team or the enterprise? And right at first, and I actually take the pressure of. I don’t say, when are you going to commit to have the conversation? Because often there’s not a readiness, but collecting their thoughts is an easier activity for them, to perform.

Bill Berthel: Get it out of our head. Get it onto a piece of paper.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, yeah. I did write about this recently, but I’m recalling a story, and I laugh about it to this day. When I was a senior associate at Coopers and Lybrand, and I was working on this fairly visible project, and I was working with managers and partners in our regional office, and there was some important information we needed for the project, and it resided with this national treasurer, this partner in the New York City office. Now, I had not yet got the memo that you don’t call this guy. So I, you know, because he was certainly three levels over me. So I just dialed him up and asked the question, got the information, and a week later, you know, came back to the meeting, and the partners were incredulous. They said, yeah, and the manager, how’d you get this? Well, I called the guy, and they say, well, nobody calls him. And I said, well, that explains why he gave me so much time and information.

Bill Berthel: you’re right.

Ralph Simone: And many of these things are self imposed now. They’re self imposed based on either assumptions we make or perhaps some experiences that we’ve had. I think I refer to this at the beginning, the power dynamic. Sometimes organizational titles and structure can create this caste system unknowingly. That limits what people feel that they can offer or share.

Bill Berthel: So just because that person I could share a message with is either in a different space or a different level of the organization, that automatically creates some type of barrier, some type of gap in being able to bring up what I need to bring up, lead up.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, well, I’ve seen it in healthcare. I mean, I have a. I’ve had a couple of health challenges. I have a tremendous amount of respect for doctors and nurses and what they’ve been able to do for me and others. But I see in my parents, they had this paradigm. The doctor was all knowing, and they wouldn’t ask any questions, and they wouldn’t advocate for themselves, and they wouldn’t share information that they had that they thought would be useful because the doctor was all knowing. So I think there’s a mutual responsibility here for leading up to work, and leading up is really influencing. Right. Everybody should feel like they can influence and be influenced in an organization. I listened to some of the language. We have to eliminate these perceived or real barriers. We’ve got to stop obsessing about the chain of command. I’m not suggesting there isn’t a need for a chain of command. We’ve got to stop fretting over being challenged. If we’re a leader, we got to not get so sensitive about someone getting outside their lane. I mean, if your focus is on performance, if your focus is on learning about better ways to do something, you have to be open as a leader. Set a direction, turn your people loose, and let them engage with whoever they need to to get the job done.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Back to your example in healthcare, I think we can take a lesson from what I’m starting to see in some of my own care, is that, some of the younger doctors, I don’t mean to be ageist, but it seems like there’s a new way of interacting with their clients, and they ask for the dialogue with you. I think they’re trying to get permission. I think as leaders, we can do that. We can ask for the dialogue more. We can demonstrate being more open to being led up to.

Ralph Simone: Well, the more open we are, the more information flows. The more information flows, the better and quicker we make decisions to move the organization forward. I often net these things out as being pragmatic. Now my kids will challenge me on. Also my station in life provides me with a little bit more power or credibility, and helps me challenge things that need to be challenged. I think I need to be mindful that there are other backgrounds and identities that might feel less empowered. So it’s even more incumbent to create this psychological safety where that everybody feels that they can ask, offer, or share something regardless of their position.

Bill Berthel: So what I hear you saying is that there are other variables, perhaps the station in life, perhaps systemic barriers that are there. We may have some different things to navigate, but we all have an opportunity to step into that space a little bit more maybe than we’re doing.

Ralph Simone: Yes. And I think so. We can’t just say, speak up. We have to mine for speaking up. We have to dig into it. We have to recognize that there are some barriers that cause people to be reluctant. But we strongly feel that a business that promotes leading up is a business that is never lacking in innovative ideas. When you have the trust and the safety in the open, communication. Those are, prerequisites for a high performing team or organization. And that means that there’s a free flow of information regardless of where you sit in the organization.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Multiple directions of that flow. Right. No matter where you sit, that information is flowing in multiple directions.

Ralph Simone: One of the simple tips that I seem to come back to with people is what is it that you’re frustrated with or challenged by or complaining about as it relates to your boss and to at least turn that into a request, write it out, you know, what is it that you would ask of them and why? And then sit with it for a minute. But then let’s talk about if it’s still important. Why are you reluctant to have that conversation? Now, lets practice it.

Bill Berthel: That’s a gem right there. Let’s not go past that too quickly, because, turning our complaints into requests is what? How do I do that? I’m holding this thing about my boss. That’s frustration. Right. And I’ve got this complaint, this frustration in my head. How do I get that to be a request?

Ralph Simone: Well, I think, first of all, lean into that it exists. Don’t try and pretend you’re not frustrated.

Bill Berthel: Right. Right.

Ralph Simone: Secondly, I think I would put some context around it. Why is it a frustration to you?

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And why is it important for it to change? Then? I would, think in terms of what would a, future outcome be, what would need to look different or be different for me to be satisfied? So that’s kind of the end in mind outcome.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: What’s the time frame? And then the purpose of making a request is to get a yes.

Bill Berthel: That’s right.

Ralph Simone: And so one of the things that I think, and this is why you don’t just force people to have conversations. Timing of the conversation is critical. So I think the mood of the person making the request and the mood of the person you’re requesting something of the receptivity is important. So picking a time when you could maximize getting a yes.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Not in a high stress time, not when we’re.

Ralph Simone: No. Now business is really lousy, and you’re going to ask for the raise that you deserve? Probably not. Doesn’t mean you don’t ask for it. But I think the timing is important. I was doing, a talk a couple of weeks ago, and I actually think I created disconnection in a part of the talk, which was not the intention, by the way, but I got to ask this question. And it was somewhat around leading up, but it was really more generalized around just communications and because of all the differences of ages in nationalities and ethnicities and genders in the workplace, we now have to be more and more careful about what we say and how we say it. And I said no. And I should have acknowledged and validated, but I said no. I said, that’s the very problem. We’re not engaging in authentic conversations that we really need to have because we’re trying way, way too hard to not offend anybody and to be too careful. And I think that’s what used to prevent me from saying what I needed to say. But it was mostly out of self preservation. And so I think let’s arm people with the skills, but first let’s address the belief system that’s preventing them from having that conversation. We’ve said this in other podcasts. The most important conversations and relationships and organizations are the ones that we’re not having.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I see these differences, these other variables that you’re mentioning as more reason to have the conversation. We have more opportunity for inclusion by having the conversation than by looking for variables to get in the way. Yeah, we will include more people if we have the conversations, whether that’s your list, ethnicity, whatever our background, gender. We need to have the conversation more so we get more included.

Ralph Simone: So here’s one of my tips that I give myself and I want to give to all the listeners.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, great.

Ralph Simone: If you find yourself thinking that somebody was out of line, asking something or saying something, get over yourself. Just get over yourself. Take it and act on it if it makes sense,

Bill Berthel: What’s next?

Ralph Simone: I don’t know. I think that. Get over yourself.

Bill Berthel: That’s it.

Ralph Simone: I think that’s it. Because I think that that gets in the way. You know, we talked about. Maybe I’ll add a little bit. We’ve talked about psychological safety in the past. How we respond to the way that people offer suggestions or question us will set a precedence for how others will do that and just consider it. That doesn’t mean that every idea is a good idea or every question, but don’t be offended by it. Who are they to ask me that? They’re a person who has that as a question. I think the other thing I’d add, and this is one of my favorite ground rules in any conversation, is you can ask or say anything about anything, because if it’s on your mind, it’s in the way of you focusing or concentrating or performing. Let’s not be so uptight as to who asked or how they asked it. Let’s get at the essence of how it could be useful for the organization or enterprise.

Bill Berthel: So the reason I asked what else I thought you were going to go to something that you’ve taught me, is that people are either wanting to be helped or being helpful.

Ralph Simone: Oh, good. I didn’t think of that.

Bill Berthel: I think he’s cut. Well, I think that’s what you’re saying in this. I think that, at least that’s what I’m hearing, is that if we’re not going to lead up or speak up, we’re holding on to that helpfulness.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: We’re creating a barrier for that helpfulness to come out.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And we do a lot of work in emotional intelligence. And I think how you say it does influence how receptive people are. I also think, don’t make too much of that either. You know, let’s not be offended. So easily offended. Let’s take the essence of what someone is asking for or offering, and let’s work with it to move forward.

Bill Berthel: I like it. Ralph thank you. Thanks, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are best, better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thanks for listening.