Ralph and Bill return to a topic they previously discussed in an episode called “The Yes List,” offering more practical tips on declining requests. It’s an essential skill because leaders can’t possibly commit to everything they’re asked, but saying no can be incredibly difficult, and it can even be challenging to determine which requests you should decline. This time around, Bill and Ralph introduce a rubric called “The Meee List” that can help you identify the situations in which you should say no. This is an episode you’ll be glad you said “yes” to.
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Bill Berthel
Welcome to The Get Emergent podcast. The Get Emergent podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve performance of their leadership and those they lead. I’m Bill Berthel.
Ralph Simone
And I’m Ralph Simone.
Bill Berthel
Ralph, this is gonna be fun. Kind of revisiting a little bit of an old topic, but I think it’s really powerful. I need it, so maybe I’m being selfish.
Ralph Simone
I think we all need it. And it was great. This was a question that was asked, an icebreaker question that was asked in a recent team meeting by our project manager. And the question asked was, what criteria do you use to say no to something? A request, an invitation, et cetera. Right. So, this idea of fertile or healthy boundaries and that got the discussion going right.
Bill Berthel
It really did. Right. So, our whole team was there and call out to Tiffany Patton for asking us this question. She so often starts our meetings with really great icebreaker questions that get us connecting. Right. That’s the purpose of those. And this question particularly, you know, I’m the kind of person that tends to say yes quickly without giving it a lot of thought. All the reasons. Right. I like to please others. I like to be included. I think I want to be helpful. I think I can be helpful. Maybe it’s a little egotistical. Like, I’m like, oh, I can add value to this thing. Maybe, you know, I could have some fun with it, probably, or be included. But that gets me in trouble sometimes. I over commit. My energy gets really low. I, Yeah, I say yes to too many things sometimes.
Ralph Simone
Well, so this was interesting to me, and I just thought about it a little differently since our conversation earlier. I actually have the tendency for personal things to quickly say no.
Bill Berthel
Yeah, yeah.
Ralph Simone
But in opportunities within our work, I’m very quick to say yes. So it’s interesting, but I think socially, I think there’s an uptick. I mean, I think I have some pretty clear criteria, but I think I guard my downtime, maybe a little too rigidly. And so my first inclination is to say no. And I think this question was an opportunity to at least revisit the criteria by which I say yes or no to any request.
Bill Berthel
So what I think you’re putting a highlight on Ralph and it’s very important. Is the context of the request, the invitation. Right. Is this in my personal space, this more business related? Is this a, family obligation? We can start creating these categories, if you will. I think creating a compelling yes list that works most anywhere for us is a very strong, valuable tool. I’ve experimented with a few different versions. And I’m going to share that, it’s a continued experiment. I’m not saying this is perfected by any means. We’ve discussed this idea before on a podcast we called the yes list.
Ralph Simone
Absolutely.
Bill Berthel
But a while back, I think we also had shared this idea of a me list. And me is spelled with three e’s. It’s M-E-E-E. And for a while, I ran an experiment using the me list. And we’re going to get into what each of those letters mean, using the me list as my criteria for saying yes or no to something.
Ralph Simone
I like it. And what I heard you say is you can apply it in all areas of your life.
Bill Berthel
I think I have. I’ve run that experiment. It is applicable in most or every space. That context matters a great deal. But I think I’m going to, just for simplicity of language, call this, I think, a universal yes list. I think it’s become a universal yes.
Ralph Simone
Listen, it’s less to keep track of, I think energetically. I like the idea. I like where you’re going.
Bill Berthel
Yeah. Less to keep track of. And you can run the experiment in all areas of your life and see how it works for you. So the m me starts with m. the letter m stands m for matters. Or I also. I sometimes attach meaningful or meaning to this m. Right. So matters or it has meaning. And this one, as we’ll see, each of these , the M and all three e’s, relate to values that I hold. And I think it’s really important that our yes list is value based. But this is really about relationship I have with the meaning. This has to be important to me or someone else that I care deeply about. So whatever the request is an invitation, a request to do something in business, there has to be some meaning and some mattering behind it for myself and or others that I’m interested in or care about.
Ralph Simone
So there’s two dimensions here. It’s the task itself or the invitation, but also the people involved. And we were talking about. I reluctantly went to a social activity last week, but I went because it mattered to my older sister. It was important to her. The activity on its own. I probably wouldn’t. I would not have done.
Bill Berthel
You wouldn’t have done for yourself?
Ralph Simone
I would not have done it for myself because it wouldn’t have met my criteria. But it’s interesting. I like what you talked about, the matters piece tied to values. Because when I first thought about the response to this question, how do I say yes or no? It answers, can I learn something and can I contribute to something? And those are two important values that I hold. And so if I could learn and or contribute, then it matters to me.
Bill Berthel
Yes. Yes. So I think the mattering or the meaning, that’s a very subjective criteria. What value matters to you? If it hits a value that’s important, like just relationships for this is important for me. You know, if someone I care deeply about or I love, asks me to do something, I’m more apt to say yes, then, I mean, this is a no brainer than a stranger, right? but it’s also the relationship with myself. I have to think about myself in this too. Not in a selfish way, but like you just shared, will I learn something? Will I contribute something? That could just be a self-held value there as well. I think that’s just equally important. So this is where an easy, quick yes or no comes. If it’s not going to have meaning, if it’s not going to matter, I’m going to find someone else or another resource or it’s a, no not for me. Thank you.
Ralph Simone
Yeah, yeah. And it’s really a practice skill to be able to say no with a smile.
Bill Berthel
Yeah.
Ralph Simone
Right. Because then you’re probably congruent. Right. You’re probably aligned with it because it connects.
Bill Berthel
Absolutely. Our no can be with a smile. It doesnt have to be a hard ugly no for sure. The first e of the three e’s, well, the first e is energy. I think these are in order of importance. Quite honestly, there’s a two-part to this one as well. So, first, do I have and am I willing to spend my energy on this request or to go to this event or say yes to this invitation? That’s how I start this criteria. And if I’m able to answer yes to that first part, yes, I have the energy and yes, I’m willing to spend it on doing this thing, taking care of this thing. The second part is equally as important. I must ask myself, how will I recharge from this activity or is this activity going to energize me anyway?
Ralph Simone
Right.
Bill Berthel
Because I’m actually going to go and enjoy it and love it and be energized by it, or I’m going to go and it’s going to be bit more of an energy spend or a drain I need a plan in place to recharge and if I can’t come up with that plan, it’s a no.
Ralph Simone
Yeah, because this one point, right, everything is energy. We need to be able to restore the expended energy. And then this one I look at from almost the extroverted, introverted perspective, I am more of an introverted person in an extroverted profession. And so if I don’t have the opportunity to recharge often, my no is based on. Right. The energy I have going in. But will the activity be re-energizing or will it be draining? So that often factors into my decision-making is what will it do to my current energy level?
Bill Berthel
Yes. I think what you just shared there is going to resonate with a lot of leaders. I think some leaders who are introverted find themselves in a extroverted profession. I think leadership tends to be a more extroverted profession. And for those of us that are either inclined slightly more towards introversion, which is really about how and where we get and spend our energy. Right. How can you make your plan and your leadership to make sure that you’re recharging? Right. Because it is an extroverted, energetic activity, leadership.
Ralph Simone
And that’s why I think energy renewal and anything we do for ourselves and others needs to be integrated. It needs to be intermittent. You can’t just wait. Right. You can’t wait till vacation to recharge it. You have to be doing it on an ongoing basis.
Bill Berthel
Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I just got back from vacation, and some of it was an energy drain, quite honestly. Not that I didn’t enjoy myself.
Ralph Simone
Right, right.
Bill Berthel
But sometimes it’s not the energy gain you’re going to get from that. So, yeah, we have to do this, well, we get to do this in more regular intervals. Absolutely.
Ralph Simone
What’s the next e Bill?
Bill Berthel
So the next e is engaged or engagement? You know, I’ve got kind of a question here, and I’m going to use a little foul language that I can think of my father saying, you know, don’t you really hate it when someone half asses something? Don’t you notice when someone’s not really fully in it?
Ralph Simone
I think we notice it. I think everybody notices. I think we have, you know, in it to win it. Fully engaged, fully present. You really commit. I think I’m fairly judicious with my commitments, but when I commit, I’d like to think most of the time, I’m all in. And so if it’s something that I’m not sure I can be mostly in on, how about that? I probably won’t, because I think I would run the risk of your dad referring to me as half assing it.
Bill Berthel
And so I think I don’t want to be that guy half assing it. But I think context really matters here. So it doesn’t mean that I can necessarily do this thing at 100%. It might mean, back to the value of learning. Maybe I will get to learn something along the way in my engagement. Maybe it’s about enjoyment. Maybe it’s about being challenged. It, doesn’t mean I have it figured out. It doesn’t mean, oh, I’ve done this a million times, so I can do it again. It means that I am going to be completely engaged if I say yes to this thing. It’s a level of commitment and engagement that I would expect from myself and or others in that not just hoping I get to the end or just going through the motions.
Ralph Simone
Well, interestingly, if we’re just hoping to the end, we don’t. There’s another e, which is not part of our equation, but it’s, you don’t enjoy it, right? You’re just kind of waiting it out, and that’s probably energy draining, and it’s probably a good reason to say no.
Bill Berthel
I consider my likely engagement level on a ten-point scale here.
Ralph Simone
Nice.
Bill Berthel
Anything eight and higher gets it, because I think it, you know, this is a place where the 80% rule wins again. I don’t have to have it at 100%, but it’s got to be a high level of engagement, and I’m not going to be just waiting for the time to go by.
Ralph Simone
That brings us to the last e in the me criteria, which is,
Bill Berthel
So this one is effective. How effective do I plan to be? Or. I think I can be, I think, in this space, can someone else do this better than I can, or am I taking someone else’s opportunity away to get better at it? Because that’s part of, I think we share this value that we really want to help others grow. We want to take a, we have an interest in. We want to facilitate that with other people. So part of our effectiveness is also being that mentor, coach, or opportunity provider so someone else can take it. But I do think, is there someone better than me for this? Am I taking someone’s opportunity to learn away if I’ll be non-effective that way? Will, I be as effective as I want to be doing this task or going to the event or saying, yes? Effective can mean many different things. I think the context really matters again. I might not, again, be 100% ready for this next task, but if I get to learn, if I get to practice or run the experiment, that’s effective to me.
Ralph Simone
And I think this one is interesting for me. I tend to use, these criteria myself often, and if, I like to be reasonably good at it, because I think that adds to my contribution. Now, that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t say yes to something that was new, because, as you mentioned, the opportunity to learn. But I think there’s some things that I don’t enjoy doing because I’m not that effective in doing it. And so they don’t necessarily make my list. And I think giving myself permission for that to be okay.
Bill Berthel
Absolutely. In the personal space, it might mean having a contractor come in and do some work instead of being a, do it yourselfer in the work base. It might be, yeah, you know, I could do this pretty well. But what if I grab someone else, either to assist or lead me in that thing? Could we be more effective together?
Ralph Simone
I like where you’re going with this from a developmental standpoint, from scaling an organization. As we look at what is on our yes list, we do have to be mindful of, are we robbing opportunities for us to develop more production capability in the organization by putting it on someone else’s list? And I love the contractor example. Assuming we have the resources, we have the financial resources. I mean, I’m, a decent painter. But I’m slow. I’m a bit of a perfectionist.
Bill Berthel
Yeah.
Ralph Simone
It’s kind of a draining activity. So it doesn’t necessarily make my yes list for those reasons. Assuming I have a little bit of discretionary, income to be able to pay, a contractor to come in and get it done.
Bill Berthel
Absolutely. No. And I love that example. I think those examples exist in our professional work as well as maybe chores and things to do around the house. We could really be looking at this as not just my effectiveness but scaling out to my team or my organization for effectiveness.
Ralph Simone
Because I don’t think we put ourselves at a place of choice often for our yes list. I think when we pay attention to our language, a, lot of should language, well, I should know how to do that. I should be doing that. And I think we kind of should ourselves into a list that is unmanageable because it doesn’t check the matters, the engage, the energy and the effectiveness boxes. And I like this because I think it can apply to both personal and professional things that make our lists.
Bill Berthel
So I think our listeners could run an experiment with our list. I think making it even more powerful, make up your own list. Come up with three to five items. The stoics shared three to five items. Not a big lengthy list, something that you could quickly assess just in your mind. You don’t even have to write it down to say, doesn’t fit these three to five criteria for me to say yes to? If it doesn’t hit all three to five as a yes, it’s a no, a not yet or renegotiate. I can renegotiate, possibly the date. Maybe it doesn’t fit because it’s too soon for me. Maybe it’s let me find someone else for you or another resource. Maybe it’s a not yet, but it needs to hit all three to five of your criteria. And maybe your criteria be a little bit different than ours.
Ralph Simone
Well, what I loved about this conversation is I like the me criteria, but I also like criteria that kind of was a byproduct of us talking today. And for me it’s will I learn something?
Ralph Simone
Can I contribute something, and will I enjoy it? And I think I’m going to start experimenting. I’ve done the me list, I’ll continue. But I might experiment with that list of three because I really think that it’s kind of a byproduct of our conversation. Those three things really speak to my values, and it ought to be fun, right? I mean it shouldn’t feel hard, at least in all instances.
Bill Berthel
Absolutely, absolutely. And folks, we hope this, inspires you to create your yes list. And if you’d send us a little bit about what you’re doing, you can reach out to support@emergent.com and share your yes list criteria with us. you can certainly reach out directly to bill@getemergent.com or ralph@getemergent.com. We’d love to hear what you’re doing to be able to manage your time and energy much more effectively. And so thanks for listening, folks. We hope you enjoyed the episode and that you’re looking forward to more. You can listen to new podcasts two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcast. Thank you so much. Ralph thanks for the time today.
Ralph Simone
Thanks, Bill.
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