Influence and Information

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel:
Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast. The Get Emergent podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve performance of their leadership and those that they lead. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop a higher potential in your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone:
And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel:
Ralph, so this idea of influence and information kind of came up over time for me and I, looking forward to talking about this with you today.

Ralph Simone:
Yeah, there’s lots of models out there that we have read and studied and actually recommend to people. For instance, starting with why, which, may be falling short for some people as far as their willingness to be influenced in some cases.

Bill Berthel:
So I’ve been noticing, as I’ve shared, that in many trainings and even in one on one coaching conversations, there’s just a little bit more pushback around that idea of either start with why or from a rhetorical triangle, the good old pathos, ethos, logos, model of persuasion. Right. The ancients were suggesting these three components to be used in combination. Right. They recognize, combination of these three are most effective.

Ralph Simone:
So I think it is the combination which is the key. And I was just thinking about this after we started talking about this as a topic. Many of these books Start with Why, Simon Sinek, the Golden Circle. TED Talks around storytelling, all preceded the Great Resignation.

Bill Berthel:
That’s an interesting connection there. I think what I’ve noticed is a little bit of a skeptical pushback. One individual actually made it really clear to me, he said I really need to be informed before I can be influenced. And that got me thinking. Well, that’s maybe a little bit less about the why, the storytelling, the emotion and the passion, and actually a little bit more about the logos, a little bit more about the logical information. Right. I need to be informed. He said.

Ralph Simone:
Absolutely.

Bill Berthel:
And I liked what he said.

Ralph Simone:
Well, and I think you were adaptable enough to hear it and to adjust to it because it’s one size fits one.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah.

Ralph Simone:
And in that instance, that person needs the what and the how. I didn’t think I was going to bring this up, but I think one of the challenges people have around deciding where they’re going to vote is what’s the plan?

Bill Berthel:
Yes.

Ralph Simone:
And how are you going to get me there? And it seems like regardless of what party you’re supporting, the plan somewhat falls short from time to time. There isn’t the data to convince me. It’s a lot of emotion, it’s a lot of stuff out there, but it’s not necessarily the pathway.

Bill Berthel:
Right. And that desire, I think, for more. I’m going to say transparency, with leadership isn’t new. That’s been wanted and asked for for decades, maybe, maybe more, maybe hundreds of years. We do want to be informed. I think from a more contemporary workforce perspective, folks really want to be brought in, not necessarily in the decision making, but understanding the information considered, the logical lines of reasoning that were considered just as equally important as perhaps the leader’s emotion or why I think they need to see more logos than perhaps some contemporary, I’m going to call it conjecture, but some might call it research. Has been suggesting.

Ralph Simone:
And I think, you know, one of the ways that books get sold and programs get supported is they take the stand that you need to be m-ore emotional, you need to connect through storytelling, there needs to be more pathos in your leadership. And while that’s true, not at the exclusion of logos and ethos. And I think too often, you know, we need to find that sweet spot, the integration of all those three. And the ratios will vary depending on the audience. But what I’m hearing you say is you’re experiencing more people clamoring for the data, the information.

Bill Berthel:
Exactly. And I think it’s reasonable. I don’t think folks are asking for information that perhaps isn’t appropriate for them to have. I think sometimes we hold back. I was guilty of this in some of my leadership was, you know, well, what will they do with this information? That information maybe is a little bit sensitive sometimes. I think folks get that. I think they’re asking for appropriate transparency. They’re not asking for, you know, how much the other guy is making or, you know, why is Susie really not showing up to work every day? They’re not asking for her personal medical information. They’re not, for the most part. I’m sure there’s outliers there that are digging for dirt, but they want appropriate information, so they too can be part of the thinking process.

Ralph Simone:
So I’m curious as to what we would advise or coach leaders on how to change up their messaging or how to modify their messaging so that it would resonate with more people.

Bill Berthel:
I think let’s start with ethos, which is the credibility or authority. I don’t think much is changing there. If we’re going to rest our laurels in that space and just go with, do it because I told you to, we’re probably not going to be influential. We’re going to get compliance and dependency at best. All right. So I think it’s still the minority in most situations. I’m sure there are situations where, Yep, do it because I told you, you got to get it done. Most cases. Most situations, I think we can see that it’s the smallest amount or the least turned dial when we’re working.

Ralph Simone:
There are some credentials of a person do lend themselves to credibility. I was talking with an oncologist a couple months ago after a workout, and he happens to know my urologist and he talked about specifically where he trained for his fellowship and he said to get someone out of that program to come to our part of the country is unbelievable. So not that I already didn’t have a lot of confidence in my doctor, but the credibility actually got even higher in my trust. Higher because of that information that was shared. So that does still factor.

Bill Berthel:
Absolutely factors in. I love the example you just gave because it was providing that credibility as a piece of information that would be valuable to you in that moment. Correct your consideration on the relationship that’s happening there. It wasn’t a, this is my role, this is my pedigree, it really wasn’t. It was really information. Right. I love the way you brought that example in. I think we’ve often talked about pathos, emotion, vivid storytelling. Still important folks, need to hear why we’re attached to something, why we’re asking for something different, a piece of change, some action, and why we’re connected to it. I think what’s shifting in this space is that you might be influencing me through that. But understand that my story might be slightly different. My emotion attached to the same context could be different and still work incredibly well. So I don’t have to adapt my leader’s emotion. I don’t have to take on his or her why, I can actually attach my own to that same compelling story. So it’s not cookie cutter, it’s not Xerox copies of, pathos. It’s such like, we can get it richer than that.

Ralph Simone:
Yeah. And I think this is, you know, part of tuning in to our culture, tuning into the person right in front of us. you know, one size fits one. And we have to have the adaptability as human beings, as leaders to be able to work in all three of these aspects. Ethos, pathos and logos. And not to overplay one. And to really tune into what someone needs to be influenced.

Bill Berthel:
100%. And I think, I think it’s tuning into then what information, what logic and reasoning, what logos is appropriate to share, would be helpful for this individual to come to either a similar conclusion or some action that will work towards what I’m influencing, right? It’s informed before influenced, or it’s informed to be influenced.

Ralph Simone:
Now, I have a bias here, so I want you to help me out with this. My bias is that many leaders, many senior leaders, are not transparent enough. And I’m sure that that’s not true in all cases. But, you know, what guidance, what counsel would we give leaders on how and where they can be more transparent with information?

Bill Berthel:
So I think it’s about appetite for risk. I think there’s a sense of, if I share this information, where does it go? There’s a trust factor here, right? I think we need to be really clear in each situation to share how far that information can travel past the specific context or whatever’s being worked on or solved. So there has to be high levels of trust. I think there needs to be a little bit of appetite for risk that if I do share this, what if I’m proven wrong? What if my data or information isn’t quite accurate or quite as solid as I thought? So there’s some appetite for, I’m going to put it in quotes of failure, right? That I could be a little fallible here, right? What, a gift to have someone I’m working with be able to reinforce that information or make it stronger for me. We have to go there, though, right? We have to be willing to go there. And then I think it’s really knowing what is inappropriate to share. Like, where is that line? You know, so it’s nothing about, you know, personal information about somebody else, anything that’s, you know, legally protected or protected by policy or governance. You know, it doesn’t get shared. And I’m going to say 99.44% of the people out there are so pure, it floats Ivory soap, right? Don’t want that information. They’re not asking for that. They’re not. They get that.

Ralph Simone:
So I think we have to, hold ourselves more accountable and get more rigorous in what and how we communicate, because I think we can be clearer. I think we can share more information. I think we can dig into what really can’t be shared without generalizing. So I think there is a big opportunity to be more influential by sharing more information.

Bill Berthel:
I, think it’s exactly that. I think it’s getting a little bit more comfortable being able to verbalize where that line is to say, I’m not at liberty to share xyz here is the information that I do solidly have, you know, how will we use this in either the work together or whatever we’re, you know, whatever the context is, how will we be able to use this to our advantage?

Ralph Simone:
But I even love that example, being transparent with what you can’t be transparent with.

Bill Berthel:
I think so.

Ralph Simone:
Yeah. Because I think people are no longer guessing, and I think they can appreciate that because you’re giving them information as to why you can’t share certain types of information.

Bill Berthel:
Absolutely. And again, I think the vast majority of us respect that. It builds trust, it builds psychological safety. It sends the signal that, hey, that kind of information about me also won’t get shared. Right. I think those are all good. I think we maybe don’t step into it as often as we could, or we were concerned about that space. Just like any other missing or critical conversation of, ooh, am I going to do some harm to the relationship? Am I going to be seen as either not sharing enough or not knowing? I, think that space of clarity, right, Is the rule.

Ralph Simone:
So it seems like there can be some concern or some shortcomings when we come out with a new breakthrough around leadership or organizational dynamics and we don’t balance it with the conjunction, and.

Bill Berthel:
I think so, Ralph, thank you. I think this is another both. And if we’re talking about pathos, ethos and logos as that rhetorical triangle combination of all three, likely always better than just relying on one or two. The combinations are always going to be different. It’s an and, and, and. There’s three ands in this relationship of pathos and ethos and logos. But the combinations, the amounts will always be different. I think we have to know our audience. We have to know the context and situation, and we have to look at ourselves. What can I provide in an appropriately transparent way to really move people to action?

Ralph Simone:
That’s why communicating and leading takes a lot of energy at times it because you need to, first of all, have the recognition that all three of those are important. You need to be in tune with the context in which you’re communicating. And then you need to have some skill in all three of those areas in order to really inform and then influence people accordingly.

Bill Berthel:
You know, I chuckled there because I think that really resonated with me, hit the nail on the head. I think I’m, sometimes not at my best with this because I’m working to conserve my energy instead of spend my energy in that moment where it would be better to spend more effective. That was a judgment. It would be much more effective to spend the energy and dial that in instead of conserving the energy in that moment.

Ralph Simone:
That’s why, you know, in digging in, to really ground any argument we have with data, does require some effort.

Bill Berthel:
Absolutely.

Ralph Simone:
And sometimes with all of the information that is coming our way, the path of least resistance is just to kind of skate on the top of it and perhaps mask it with ethos or pathos. And so we really need to consider all three as we continue to influence people towards different behaviors.

Bill Berthel:
Yeah. beautifully said. Hey, Ralph thanks for the conversation.

Ralph Simone:
Thanks, Bill.

Bill Berthel:
And thank you all for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you’re looking forward to more. You can always listen to a new podcast two times every month right here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you pick something up, you’re going to apply to your leadership in your work. Let us know how it goes by reaching out to support@getemergent.com or directly to Ralph and I. Thanks for listening.