How to Be Offended

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

Welcome. I’m Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the twenty plus years of our business, it’s that leadership is a continued conversation. We’re glad you’re here, Ralph. Always great to be in conversation with

Ralph Simone

you most of the time.

Bill Berthel

Oh, no, always. Always. No matter what we talk about. And, and I want to talk to you about how to be offended.

Ralph Simone

Oh, I’ve cornered the market. I’ve cornered the market. It’s an interesting topic. Go ahead.

Bill Berthel

I think you’ve done a lot of work, and you’ve trained many leaders on actually how to be offended. And what I mean by that is to have your voice. You can be offended and not harm the relationship.

Ralph Simone

Have your voice, have your brand, have your expectations, or your code.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

Just make sure your code is explicit, because it… because sometimes people do things that are offensive. It’s going to happen. They do things that don’t contribute to the mission, the values, the goals of the organization. They do things that are misaligned

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

with previous conversations. And they need to be nudged.

Bill Berthel

Yes. Yes.

Ralph Simone

They need to be nudged.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. So it’s often, either, an expectation was missed, maybe certain behavior can’t quite be sanctioned in that given moment. And as leaders, we have a responsibility to that conversation and that relationship.

Ralph Simone

How can people change something that they’re unaware has been offensive or didn’t work?

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

I think it’s a, you know, it’s a responsibility to others’ development that we share that with them. And, you know, I mean, I’ve played around with this because I think some people go out of their way to be offended. But I want you to, because I want you to be looking for the things in your organization that are preventing scale, that are preventing the culture from being psychologically safe. And address them.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And put them in play.

Bill Berthel

Not everyone goes to what is the relationship, or what do I think about the other person, or what I want for them. We might stop with just the feeling of being offended or the meaning we’re making in that. That person, like, you know, they didn’t get back to me. They don’t care about me. Whatever the offense is, we stop there.

Ralph Simone

And if you’re in a relationship, it’s much larger than that. And if you’re in a relationship with people that you have supported, and you’ve helped them step further into their potential, you expect more for them, not from them. You expect more for them. And so, bringing it up. And I can bring it up in a way that maintains rapport and relationship, but at least gets them thinking about other instances where they may not be paying attention to the relationship.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, absolutely.

Ralph Simone

I mean, we can, we can. If we look hard enough, we can be easily offended. But don’t. But don’t not be offended. I think sometimes the pendulum swings that everything is okay, every… Well, now, you know, sometimes everything is not okay.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And it warrants being addressed. I think people get way too careful. They don’t want to bring something up. I don’t know. They’re afraid of

Bill Berthel

I don’t want to offend anyone.

Ralph Simone

Yes.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

I think we ought to have a little fun offending some people.

Bill Berthel

I think sometimes in leadership, if we’re open to it, the easily offended can become somewhat of a cultural barometer or an indicator of where something does need to be fixed. Right. Because they have a sensitivity that perhaps others are just, like, letting go or just dealing, you know, just like letting it, maybe even neglecting or just not improving something where I think those complaints are gifts. Sometimes, if we listen, I think we

Ralph Simone

have to dig in, and I think we have to listen more deeply, and we have to, and even more broadly, too. How often is that coming up? We might have to mine for a little bit.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

Mine to be offended. Who? Who else is bothered by this but not saying something?

Bill Berthel

Right, right.

Ralph Simone

Because too often we are doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. And, so be offended a little bit.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

If something doesn’t meet your expectations, let people know. Now, hopefully, let them know your expectations first.

Bill Berthel

Right, right.

Ralph Simone

I mean, I get into trouble a little bit more at home that, you know, I have a code around how things get done. And when you violate that code, I will take offense to that. Now, my wife will say, well, who the hell knows? You didn’t know

Bill Berthel

that part of your code.

Ralph Simone

Maybe I said, well, it comes out over time.

Bill Berthel

Right, right, right.

Ralph Simone

You know, I mean, it doesn’t make sense for me to go through the whole code in one sitting.

Bill Berthel

There isn’t a manual. There isn’t a published book somewhere. I can’t.

Ralph Simone

It reminds me of NCIS. And Gibbs has his rules. Yeah, yeah. But his rules get created over time. Yeah, yeah. Just as my code has been created over time.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

My code has been created over time around building relationships, around fulfilling commitments, around being true to yourself and others. Right. There’s, there’s a foundation, and it’s really around serving.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And it’s really around making a contribution. And it’s spotting when things are inefficient or misaligned and, and then being able to bring that up.

Bill Berthel

Our family’s rewatching Ted Lasso in anticipation for the next new season that’s coming out soon, and it’s early. I think it’s in season one. And the Nigerian soccer player, Sam, is a lovely young man.

Ralph Simone

Right?

Bill Berthel

Absolutely. And Ted Lasso, it’s one of their earlier, maybe the third episode. I can’t remember one of their earlier exchanges. And Ted gifts him one of the little plastic army men.

Ralph Simone

Oh, right, right, right.

Bill Berthel

And Sam does, I think, a masterful job of being offended. In the end, he gives the gift back. He rejects the gift.

Ralph Simone

Right.

Bill Berthel

And is able to explain why the gift doesn’t resonate with him. He’s, he’s able to explain that it represents American imperialism. That wasn’t good in his country. But the way in which he does it, he is so emotionally regulated, he ensures that he’s still connected to Ted. He has his voice and Ted. Got Ted, at first, like, whoa. Like, why would you give this gift back? It was meaningful to me. It symbolized something. But he did it, Sam did it, in such a masterful way that kept that relationship, built respect between the two men, and was still able to have his voice and

Ralph Simone

be offended and convey an important part of his value system. And I think that we need more of that.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And I think that comes out of a trusting relationship. But I think people need to know how things sit with us now. You know, I struggle with this one. Right. Because it’s the tension between, if you feel like people are always offended. You know, I do think there’s, you know, well, how could you be a little less offended, or how could you dig a little deeper to understand the intention? But having the conversation allows you to strengthen the relationship. It also prevents you from stepping in it

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

in the future.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And, you know, I want people to understand what offends me. And, you know, if you tell me you’re going to do something, you don’t do it. I’m offended by that. Yeah. To the point that I’m going to follow up with you. Right. And, and because why? We’re trying to build commitment and build accountability. We’re trying to build trust, and many of those get eroded when someone doesn’t follow through on a commitment.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And, you know, my kids will jam me up a lot about, you know, moving into the twenty first century with examples, language references, even gender faux pas. Sure. And I’m, I’m glad they’re offended, because it’s in their being offended that I learned something.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

They also learned something about me.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

And there’s a, there’s a mutual respect. Look, I don’t want to, I don’t want to unintentionally offend somebody.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

But it’s by offending others and them speaking up is how I know that what I’m talking about or my philosophy on something is potentially offensive to others. But if they did, if they sat on it, if they believed that, you know, kids are to be seen and not heard, which was kind of a mantra when I was growing up, I don’t think I bought into it, but it was one that. It’s like, no, no. This is stuff you need to know now. I think some people can be overly sensitive, and I find that offensive. All right, come on. We got to be able to mix it up a little bit here and be able to take the gloves off. And as long as there is no disrespect intended, let’s, let’s, let’s get over ourselves. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Well, each example you’ve brought up, the personal examples with your children, the example in pop culture around Ted Lasso, I think what helps each of these situations be more resourceful and effective is holding on to a desire to have the relationship and have the relationship be well. But it sounds like the people involved had impeccable enough speech, language clear enough to be able to both share their voice, hold their expectations, and stay in conversation. Because it goes sideways when it’s just like, I’m done with you, you know, whatever that is, they stay in the conversation.

Ralph Simone

We can’t underestimate the importance of really strong communication skills.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

You know, I think you said this very well. It’s a version of what I’ve been studying again with Thich Nhat Hanh. Deep listening and right speech.

Bill Berthel

Right speech. Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And right speech is impeccable with your words. They’re not blaming words. They’re behavioral words.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

They’re descriptive words.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

I’m not telling you how you should feel. I’m telling you how I felt.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

When, when we had that exchange. I’m taking full responsibility and being clear with not only how I think about it, but how I feel about it. And the impact it has. And I think, and I’ve said this before, part of our challenges. We are sloppy in our language, we are sloppy in our speech, and therefore we get ourselves into trouble. I mean, if you really want to offend people or, or be offended, don’t be impeccable with your word. You know, tell people different things. Change the story. Be very imprecise. Be very ambiguous. You’ll, you’ll offend people left and right. Right. That’s a. I’m told by loved ones.

Bill Berthel

My impeccable speech is actually offensive at times.

Ralph Simone

Oh, so, so they’re giving.

Bill Berthel

Let me give you an example.

Ralph Simone

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So I, my son and I enjoy fishing together, as you know. And we’re incredibly fortunate. We live in the Finger Lakes, and there’s a beautiful opportunity on a jetty to fish. And many visitors come to this jetty, and they call it a pier. So they’ll say, you know, love, love this pier, whatever. And I really want to correct them and let them know that it’s a jetty. And my son is like, Dad. Right. So, like, it’s too much. Right. I can take it too far. What I want for them is their accuracy and clarity.

Ralph Simone

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So they don’t look or sound less intelligent is what I really want for them. I don’t want to correct them, but it comes across as me being, like, a little too uptight or correcting. Right. So how do you hold that? Right? Where’s the space? So I’m going to get a T shirt made that says, it’s a jetty, not a pier.

Ralph Simone

But I think part of maybe your son’s struggle with this is you don’t necessarily have relationship with those people.

Bill Berthel

Not yet, but I’ll get one.

Ralph Simone

You’ll get one through that conversation.

Bill Berthel

I hope to.

Ralph Simone

So, I place a high value on using language properly.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

Yes. Taking the spoken word.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

How words are pronounced and. But where I have offended people is correcting a mispronunciation of the word.

Bill Berthel

Oh, that’s interesting.

Ralph Simone

But my intention was so that they would not continue.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

Right. To contribute so that they’re not in front of a lot of people and they say, you know, there. Now, there are some words that you don’t have multiple acceptable pronunciations.

Bill Berthel

Right. Sure.

Ralph Simone

But often, you know, if you were an early reader and you were reading above your grade level,

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

you encountered words that you never heard. No.

Bill Berthel

You’re doing it the first time in real time.

Ralph Simone

Sound it out, and it could sound ridiculous. Yeah. I run the risk letting people know that. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this word pronounced this way, but I think this way is what you’ll hear more often. Why? Because you don’t want them to lose credibility.

Bill Berthel

No. Right. You want them to be okay.

Ralph Simone

You want them to be accurate.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And I think, quite frankly, pulling it off. I think the idea of offending people while strengthening the relationship is, I like the challenge in that. But I also think when I find myself being too easily offended, then am I, you know, am I making too many assumptions? Am I bringing meaning that doesn’t really

Bill Berthel

exist or isn’t very resourceful? Maybe.

Ralph Simone

And, and then, and then I think it’s in all instances, it’s up to me to do my best, which might mean to leave it alone.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Yeah, I think so sometimes.

Ralph Simone

Or it might mean, despite my discomfort,

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

to stir it up right now. I haven’t been able to convince either one of my kids of this, and I probably haven’t convinced myself of this because I like being liked, if I’m really honest. But I did, like, I just read this story about Michael J. Fox, and I don’t know if it was a book title or. But the line that your opinion of me is none of my business. Yeah, yeah. No. What does that mean? Even I don’t have to take it on as my identity. I don’t have to be offended, but I can, I can treat it as a piece of information that could be useful.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I’ve heard that phrase. I love it that way. Your judgment is actually about you and your expectations, not me and my being. Right. So the judgment is about the judge, not the judged.

Ralph Simone

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Bill Berthel

That’s hard, though, when you’re being judged or when you’re being opinionated.

Ralph Simone

They had different expectations.

Bill Berthel

Ah.

Ralph Simone

You know, you’ve heard my story. Years ago, we had a client and they, they wanted a smile sheets evaluation.

Bill Berthel

She said, oh, training.

Ralph Simone

I said, I don’t do those. Right. And they go, what do you mean you don’t do that? You don’t. Can’t improve. I said, yes, I can always improve. But I’m hoping people are giving me feedback along the way.

Bill Berthel

Way real time.

Ralph Simone

Explain that more. Could you give an example?

Bill Berthel

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone

Right. And I think an evaluation at the end of a session is a self assessment.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

You know, it’ll be high if they were engaged. It’ll be low if they were distracted.

Bill Berthel

Interesting.

Ralph Simone

It’s not an evaluation of me. It’s an evaluation of how engaged they were in the process.

Bill Berthel

Oh, that’s interesting. Ah.

Ralph Simone

As the trainer, facilitator, as part of your role.

Bill Berthel

It is.

Ralph Simone

But you know, I. So I said that I did offend the sponsor. I said, I’ll tell you what you do. Let’s take those evaluations right now and let’s give them all a seven out of seven. Because that’s what’s possible. If you guys ask questions, if you participate in the activities, if you stay present.

Ralph Simone

If you ask for clarification, we get a seven.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

I’ll do my thing. You got to do yours.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And, you know, people. Oh yeah. It’s cocky, arrogant, confident, certainly, but it’s a two way street.

Bill Berthel

Well, it’s actually, it’s been proven. I think it’s in Ben Zander’s work in The Art of Possibility. If you start. He’s a music instructor.

Ralph Simone

Right.

Bill Berthel

Music instructor, collegiate level. He noticed that if he started his classes with giving everyone A’s, their performance met the grade. Yeah, right. Instead of the relative comparison of grading, in the end, giving the A’s up front had everyone’s performance higher.

Ralph Simone

And if you subscribe to the growth mindset, you’re not offended. So my goal for offending people is so they see the gaps between where they’re at and where they could be.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And I want to stir something up in them.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone

But if you’re too easily offended, you shut down. I want to stir something up. I want people to look at it. I want them to tell me I’m full of it. Maybe I am. But, you know, finding that, you know, charge in them and helping them get better, that, that’s really, it’s about potential. It’s about doing, you know, doing your best. And you can’t do your best if you don’t have all the information.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Cool. Well, let’s go get offended.

Ralph Simone

Oh, we can do that anywhere, Ralph.

Bill Berthel

Thank you.

Ralph Simone

Thanks, Bill.

Bill Berthel

Thank you for being here today, and we hope you pick something up from this episode that you can apply, and we hope you’re looking forward to more. Thanks for being here.