Bringing Your Best Leadership Home and to Work

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

Welcome. I’m Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the 20 plus years of our business, it’s that leadership is a continued conversation. We’re glad you’re here, Jeremiah. Always great to be in conversation with you, whether here in the studio or wherever we get to connect.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So we were talking yesterday, I think, about this idea of having access to our competencies, our skills and abilities, maybe differently in our personal lives than in our professional lives. And maybe there’s a both end here. Maybe there are benefits to being able to access some of our skill sets in both places. And maybe, knowingly or unknowingly, we limit ourselves to feeling like, well, my professional role is that. And so I’m going to keep a barrier from my personal. Different than being a leader in an organization and saying, just like, you know, keep your personal life out of business. That’s not what I’m talking about. We were talking about that idea of, like, my own skills and abilities. Can my personal life benefit from some of my professional skills? And could it flow the other way?

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, yeah. And I think that there’s a commercial that came up over the World Cup season that made me think. I think it says something like, you know, if you could have any power, what would it be? Or something like that. And then it sparked this conversation at home, and a question arose, like, what’s the one thing you do really well at work or at home that you wish you could do as well at work or at home?

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Yeah. So it would.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, that idea. It’s the old conversation with the bookkeeper, accountant that is like, man, I just can’t keep my home finances in order. Or it’s the gardener at home who goes to work and just is like, you know, I can’t keep anything alive in the office.

Bill Berthel

The old saying that’s coming up for me is the cobbler’s children go without shoes.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I have not heard that. Yeah, exactly.

Bill Berthel

So he’s a shoemaker by trade, but his own kids don’t have a shoe.

Jeremiah Poulsen

The general contractor whose kitchen has been under construction for six months.

Bill Berthel

Isn’t that funny? Yeah. What do you think is either keeping a barrier or keeping a boundary that may be less resourceful? Let’s go there first. So, a less resourceful boundary between personal and professional.

Jeremiah Poulsen

A less resourceful boundary between personal and professional, yeah.

Bill Berthel

What do you think informs that, or maybe, for you?

Jeremiah Poulsen

So I think, and I don’t know if this answers your question, but I think one of the things that keeps us from achieving our better in both is that, in some cases, we have systems in place that help support the competency, and in one space we have

Bill Berthel

the systems and in the other place we don’t.

Jeremiah Poulsen

We don’t. So we might.

Bill Berthel

Oh, do I have a competency, or do I have the ability to just run a system? Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Or, or do I have? Do I have? It’s not necessarily an either or as much as, like, I have a level of competency that is appropriate with the system I have in this space. You know, in our world, I do a lot of coaching calls over Zoom. So let me paint the picture for you. I’m in an office. I’m focused completely on the person that’s on the screen in front of me. I want to be able to give them a listening ear, to be able to have my full undivided attention, fully present. I’m taking notes. All of these are different variations of the system that we have in place to give somebody excellent coaching. Now I want to listen with presence and curiosity to my kids at the dinner table.

Bill Berthel

You could give him a Zoom link. Is that where you’re going?

Jeremiah Poulsen

Well, I’m, yeah, I’m saying, like, I’m not going to go there. Maybe at some point it makes sense. But when I’m transferring that competency of listening with curiosity, with full presence for people, which I would consider competencies, strong competencies, I can do that at varying levels.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

The system, though, that we have in place at Emergent is helpful to support that competency in a way that that same competency may not be showing up at the dinner table. Does that make sense?

Bill Berthel

Makes total sense. What I’m hearing is the system could be tools, methods, processes, expectations, environment creates a system, work deadline.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Right. You have a project deadline at work. You don’t have one at home.

Bill Berthel

But those things are relaxed, or maybe non existent, or very different in the personal space. So the system feels missing, different. So I don’t bring those same skills or that competency there.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Could be a barrier to doing it. What else?

Jeremiah Poulsen

One thing.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, what else do you think?

Jeremiah Poulsen

One thing. I’m kind of, you know, one of the activations of the conversation that we’ve been having is access and permission. Yeah. You know, this is a different side of it. It kind of gets to that social, emotional side of the competency. Am I giving myself, as a leader, permission to lead my life outside of the expectations or responsibilities or title I hold at work, and vice versa? Am I giving myself permission and the grace to move in the workspace in a way that’s authentic to who I am personally?

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

You know, so I think that there’s a necessary wrestle that has to happen there between, you know, the old work life balance that comes up. I’m not a fan of it. It’s the integration of my whole self into the work. Sometimes we, it’s all or nothing. It’s.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, it feels that way at least. Right? Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Everywhere I go the same way, or I’ve got to break it into pieces and be in five different lanes and be. You know, so I think the hard work there, whether we’re talking about systems and that keeping you back or giving yourself permission, is to do the wrestle. Ask the question, what serves me and my team best in how I show up? Or me and my family best in how I show up? And then absolutely identify the systems, and then what’s holding you back as far as permissions and authenticity in all different sectors.

Bill Berthel

So a silly example there, but resourceful, is on a weekly basis, my family and I have what we call our digital hygiene meeting. So we all kind of look at how much time we have on an app on our phones. How much time did we have on our phones? What was the usage? So it’s some social public accountability amongst the family.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

It could feel really over structured from a family perspective for some people, but it’s really resourceful. So it brings structure from a work or business setting into my personal life for a purpose. Right, right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

To a value and tied to things that you care deeply about with purpose in mind.

Bill Berthel

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, raising a teen. You have teens and older kids as well. It’s a wonderful parenting opportunity. Right. Instead of a control and command opportunity, it’s, come to the table in a conversation with some structure.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Sure.

Bill Berthel

And no, we’re not all equals, but we can all equitably share in this experience around this topic. And so when Dad can admit he’s played Mahjong way too long this week on his phone.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Were you looking at my settings?

Bill Berthel

No, but, dude, I’m taking that app off because it draws me in every time.

Jeremiah Poulsen

It is.

Bill Berthel

But you know, I could admit, oh, I spent a little too much time doing something, and then that gives someone else in the family maybe permission to say, yeah, I could cut back a little bit on my social media. Or, you know what? It’s like, yeah, it’s helpful.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And I think an example going the other way is, what am I doing to get around the dinner table with people at work? Exactly. What is the appropriate drawing upon my personal experience to make work and giving myself permission to do the happy hour session, you know, like, hang out, be a human being with other folks? And there’s lots of different ways to do it, but I think that there’s a reckoning of what needs to transfer. And what am I holding apart because I haven’t given myself permission to do so yet?

Bill Berthel

So what’s the appropriate amount of love I can bring into my work? What’s the appropriate resourceful amount of vulnerability that I might have in a more intimate relationship that I can bring to work? What story can I, not overly strategically, but be human and share with my colleague that just makes the relationship, the working relationship, that much stronger? If you’re someone’s manager, someone’s director, someone’s boss, it doesn’t mean all of a sudden you have to be their social friend or drinking buddy or something like that. That’s not what I’m suggesting. But there are subtle ways to get a little bit closer with someone by taking the role boundary down a half a notch. Yeah, I’m still your boss, or I’m still your manager. Can I just take that hat off for a second? Just, can we just kind of talk plain here?

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. Which is really important, especially when you’re moving from peer to supervisor and you’re recognizing, oh, there’s a shift in our relationship.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Jeremiah Poulsen

In our personal and professional relationship. So how do I create safety for us to discuss the expectations? Well, I’m both at the same time, but in different moments, I can open the door to have conversations openly about either. Right. Take that off. Whatever imagery you want to use.

Bill Berthel

I was the HR director of a manufacturing organization. I had this one young man. He was incredibly passionate, very smart, very passionate guy. There were certain, I’ll say, activators in the workplace that drove his passion to extreme frustration. And we kind of made an agreement. I said, you know, when that happens to you, take a beat, and then you’ve got a few mentors in the shop. Grab one of those, and I could be one of those for you if you want that. So this one morning, he started the very early shift. And so I would usually come in, I don’t know what it was around me, 6:30 in the morning. He was there, like, at 4 in the morning. And I come in one morning, walk to my office, and there he is. He’s pacing in front of my door, waiting. He’s waiting, waiting. So, good morning. You know, I won’t say his name right now, you know, so, good morning. You know, how long have you been waiting for me? Not that long, Bill. Okay, good. I said, you know, so what can I do for you? Because we got to have one of those conversations. So I said, great, okay, I can see it. I can see it. I said, you know what? I said, I’m not even going to open my office. I put my bag down. I said, you know, it’s a beautiful morning. Let’s go outside for a walk.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Going back to the initial, like, integration of your skills in all spaces, what you did is you treated the guy like you would a friend.

Bill Berthel

It was. Yeah. I stayed away from the friend word.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Colleague, coworker. Yes. Much more friend like than employee. Right, right. But still having full knowledge on both sides. He was not blurring that. He knew it.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Right.

Bill Berthel

I knew it. I knew I was safe to do that. Maybe some people could not. Maybe it would go too close to friend, and they would be confused. So I knew he would be able to hold that.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Right.

Bill Berthel

But not so much. You know, I didn’t want him to feel like he was ratting on anybody or coming to the principal’s office, which is such a terrible term. Right. Because, ah, you know, the authority was put way in the background, way. And we almost left it behind in the office.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes. And so when I say treated him like a friend, I’m not saying you’re hugging him and telling him, you’re my best friend in the world.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

As much as internally, you’re giving yourself permission to hold the disposition of a friend.

Bill Berthel

Yes. So much more. Yes. Yes.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So it’s allowing that.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Jeremiah Poulsen

In real time to be present. And a lot of leaders will say, like, I just don’t want, you know, I got to, I can’t be friends with my team. You know, but I also want to care for them and give them the connection that’s respectful.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

One of the things that the integration

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Jeremiah Poulsen

offers. And I think we’re talking a lot about the leader and the impact and the work that the leader has to do to create this integration or to, you know, recognize the difference in how they show up and what competencies are available to them. I heard this line about 15 years ago that’s stuck with me ever since. And it’s this: everyone wins when the leader gets better. Everyone wins when the leader gets better.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And so one of the things that this kind of work does is it creates a ripple effect around you to the people that you encounter, both at home and at work, where they begin to realize it almost does the reverse of what you mentioned earlier in terms of the permission socially not given or restricted for you to use the L word at work. You know, and so now, as we do that, as you show up for the person who’s been activated and treat them with respect and kindness, with that disposition, now they start, oh, wait, I can walk outside and have this conversation 100%. I can do. So there’s a real time impact on all of the people around you when you choose to develop a competency of leadership. And I like to say it just like I heard it: everybody wins when the leader gets better.

Bill Berthel

So I want to go back, and we can edit this out if you don’t want to answer it. What did you say in the question with your family around having that power? Like, what would that power be? I’d love to know what your answer was.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah. Right. So, yeah, so we’re sitting in the living room, and I’m having this conversation with Tara about superpowers, essentially our own genius that we feel like is present in one space but not in the other.

Bill Berthel

What was yours?

Jeremiah Poulsen

And I think, to her delight, I said, I’d really love to be able to listen closely to our family members at home the way I feel like I do to leaders that I’m coaching. And I kind of made reference to the idea, like, man, I don’t want to grab a notepad and start taking notes at the dinner table, but I would love to be able to lean in and focus more on the conversations in a way that, you know, I’ll just be transparent. There are a lot of times where my kids are like, he doesn’t. I’ll hear them say, he doesn’t hear me.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So that is, like, my cue. Like, what did I miss?

Bill Berthel

You know, I love it.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So, yeah, I think that is mine. Is there one for you? Are you willing to throw that on record?

Bill Berthel

Well, you got me thinking about it for sure. So it’s, I’m thinking about how to articulate it clearly enough, because I know. I know what it feels like. It is, I’m actually a little bit more risk taking, and I worry less in my work, in my professional world, than I do at home, or even in my, like, you know, closer friendships or personal relationships. And I’m trying to think. It’s not that I care less or more. I’d like to bring that kind of appropriate risk taking and less worry. The person who notices that a scoreboard is popping up, meaning, you know, I’m starting to, like. I’m starting to think, like, well, wait, you got to earn something from me. I got to earn something, or you got to do that. Why aren’t I? Or, you know, it’s like, you got two strikes with me. Like, as soon as that kind of thinking, we’re starting to keep score,

Bill Berthel

comes up, we’ve got a responsibility to say, hey, can we clear the scoreboard? Oh, can we clear the. Can we take the scoreboard down? Can we clear it first and take the scoreboard down? I’d like to bring that into work even more. I would love to get to the place, this is going to sound like blasphemy as a coach, where we’re not talking about goals. We’re not talking about goals. That’s like a scoreboard thing. What if we talked about just your deepest aspirations and just what turns you on in your work and just, like, go do that and have a full belief that everything else will just follow? Right. I practice that better in my personal space, and I’d like to bring it more into our business.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Well, I’m excited to see it show up more well.

Bill Berthel

And help with it. Yeah, you got it. Yeah. Jeremiah, thank you. Always a great conversation.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yeah, same. Likewise, Bill. It’s always fun.

Bill Berthel

Appreciate it. Thank you for being here today, and we hope you pick something up from this episode that you can apply, and we hope you’re looking forward to more. Thanks for being here.