Unlearning in Leadership

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel:

Welcome. I’m Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the 20 plus years of our business, it’s that leadership is a continued conversation. We’re glad you’re here, Cathy Gaynor. I am so excited that you’re here with me. I think this is the first podcast we’ve gotten you to do with us. Right? Yeah. So thank you for being here.

Cathy Gaynor:

Of course.

Bill Berthel:

Really looking forward to our conversation today. Love our topic: unlearning. Unlearning. Right? So we, we work so much in development of leaders and teams, and we focus on, like, content, on, like, what to learn. But so much of leadership and so much of life is the unlearning. And so tell me a little bit about what’s on your mind as you’re coming into this conversation around unlearning?

Cathy Gaynor:

I’m fascinated with how beliefs show up for us and our values and how we were raised and how those continue to show up in different ways sometimes in our life, in our parenting, like you and I

Bill Berthel:

Talked about.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah. But also, you know, in our leadership, in our relationships with our coworkers and our relationships with our partners and in relationships with, really, our friends, anywhere it can show up.

Bill Berthel:

So you frame it as beliefs, which is interesting to me. Tell me more about that. Like how our beliefs show up?

Cathy Gaynor:

I think if we stopped and evaluated, beliefs really drive a lot of our activities, our tasks, our inner, we call it the inner critic, right? From coaching.

Bill Berthel:

That voice inside.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah, that voice inside that kind of gets at what we’re maybe considering as the thing to do or not to do. And I think a lot of that is driven from beliefs.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

So I need to, for example, I need to fix this problem.

Bill Berthel:

So maybe as a leader, the belief that I need to solve this or I need to fix this problem.

Cathy Gaynor:

And it’s a problem altogether.

Bill Berthel:

It may not even be a problem.

Cathy Gaynor:

It might not even be a problem. I

Bill Berthel:

Love that. I think that’s a big one to unlearn.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yes.

Bill Berthel:

Even suggesting that might be challenging for many of our listeners. It’s challenging for me. Right? Because I want to be helpful. I want it solved. I want, if it is a problem, I want it fixed. Right?

Cathy Gaynor:

Right.

Cathy Gaynor:

And for me, it’s like I was seen in my career and early in my career as a problem solver.

Bill Berthel:

We value that, don’t we?

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Everywhere. Like in education and work. Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah. So, like, in some of my coaching, it’s working with people sometimes to question, is that still the right approach for that situation or the leadership role that you’re in right now?

Bill Berthel:

So what I’m hearing coming up is, like, you’re asking some of your coaching clients to first question, like, is this a problem to begin with? How do you know? And should you be the one fixing it if it is?

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah. Well, the biggest one is like, it’s not. People aren’t a problem.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, well…

Cathy Gaynor:

To solve.

Bill Berthel:

Some are. I agree with you. We should not be viewing people, people

Cathy Gaynor:

As problems to solve or that I need to fix it. And I think we… Then you go down a route sometimes of, me included, a route sometimes of trying to have the right conversation, and I’m going to change their mind or I’m going to fix this situation with how they’re feeling because it’s a problem to be solved.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. What’s coming up for me as you, as you said, like, “I need to have the right conversation.” That might be an unlearning opportunity. Like, just get into the conversation. Just approach. Just have the conversation. It doesn’t have to be perfect going into it. It doesn’t have to be right right off the bat.

Cathy Gaynor:

And anything that we’re talking about isn’t a one sale, you know, one thing to do.

Bill Berthel:

One and done. Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

One and done. And it’s like, how do you continue down being curious? So, like, just putting yourself in a frame of asking questions and being curious about their perspective and why they think it’s a problem and all of that. I

Bill Berthel:

Think

Cathy Gaynor:

Curiosity is a big thing.

Bill Berthel:

We’re far from done with this conversation, but that could be a mic drop, I think, right there. Because, like, curiosity is probably the antidote to thinking you already know. Right? So unlearn by applying curiosity is what you’re saying.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Really get curious. Get, get in wonderment and say, maybe, like, “Oh, what don’t I know?” Or, “How do I think I really know that?” So we can possibly

Cathy Gaynor:

Get

Bill Berthel:

Inside of it a little bit. Unravel it a little

Cathy Gaynor:

Bit. Yeah, it’s questioning your thinking. I

Bill Berthel:

Love that.

Cathy Gaynor:

Like Adam Grant’s book, Think Again.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just

Cathy Gaynor:

Question your thinking and question how you’re approaching it. Are you approaching it as a problem? Are you approaching it as though you already have the answer and you know how to fix it?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. You.

Cathy Gaynor:

And is, is that the best recipe right now for this?

Bill Berthel:

I love that. I love that. So tell me about some of your own unlearning, either in your leadership or you, you lead this organization of Emergent. You’re our managing partner. There are probably lots of opportunities, especially working with the likes of me, but… Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

So tell me about a time when unlearning was, like, key for you.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah, I think I continue to be on the journey. I think I continue to be on the journey. I think I can get, you know, around it a little bit and then I slip back into my same patterns again. So I think, you know, looking at things as a problem to be fixed and that I need to solve it.

Bill Berthel:

That’s a big one for you.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah, I think I, I think I was overly encouraged early in my career. Like I’ve tried to unpack it, but… And I think many of us are that, “Oh, Cathy Gaynor can fix that,” or, “Cathy Gaynor will know how to do that.” It’s very good that you were praised and

Bill Berthel:

Recognized and rewarded for that. Right?

Cathy Gaynor:

Rewarded for that. And you come in with that kind of like that white horse syndrome. So I do that often. I have to hold back with our team sometimes and be curious about why I feel like I need to jump in and rescue this and why I think I’m the only one that can do that or can do that task.

Bill Berthel:

That’s so interesting. Right? So we, we almost sometimes gender profile the, like, the white horse to be like the male. Right? The knight on the white horse.

Cathy Gaynor:

Oh, no, I’m, I’m a master.

Bill Berthel:

No, ladies. Right? Yeah. And

Cathy Gaynor:

I think there are examples with parenting.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

Great examples where, you know, back in middle school, my daughter, she left her… comes to me all frantic. Right? “Left my homework at school.” And I said, okay, you know, and I’m like, I’m thinking in my head, “I’m not driving to school. I gotta teach her a lesson.”

Bill Berthel:

I gotta.

Cathy Gaynor:

This is, you know, parenting. I don’t have time to drive her

Bill Berthel:

To

Cathy Gaynor:

School to get what she needs. And I just kind of calmed those thoughts for a minute and said to her, “What do you think you could do?”

Bill Berthel:

So pause there for a second because you’re really talking about your own emotional regulation in the moment. Right? Like you…

Cathy Gaynor:

Your reactions.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, right. So to calm your… You said to calm, “My thoughts.” Right? So to, to… Well, to, to slow down to go faster, right? To slow yourself down a little bit.

Bill Berthel:

Calm, maybe collect your thoughts. So you respond instead of react. So your response is a little bit more effective. I think we all need to unlearn to not react.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yes.

Bill Berthel:

Right? The reaction is automatic. We almost need to unlearn, “Don’t react. Respond.” And that’s slowing down there for a moment, collecting your thoughts.

Cathy Gaynor:

I think it’s taking a deep breath.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

It’s holding back.

Bill Berthel:

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

And not, like you said, not having a reaction.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

And it’s hard when someone’s emotional in front of you.

Bill Berthel:

Especially when you love them. Right? So when it’s your kids, it’s hard. You don’t want to do anything. You really care. Yes. But when the emotional investment is higher, it’s almost more challenging. Yeah, yeah. But a place to practice.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah. So in that scenario, it was… She was emotional. She

Bill Berthel:

Was all upset. The

Cathy Gaynor:

Teacher. She went down the, you know, down the rabbit hole. “The teacher’s going to be upset with me. I don’t have it

Bill Berthel:

Done.”

Cathy Gaynor:

“I’m not going to get a good grade.” So, so the emotions were really high for her.

Bill Berthel:

Of course.

Cathy Gaynor:

And I think we mirror that sometimes as parents, and it, it takes that regulation of our own emotions and reactions to it with a deep breath.

Bill Berthel:

Yes.

Cathy Gaynor:

And coming out with a question versus, “You shouldn’t have done that. You should…” You know, I think it’s hard because you do have that kind of reaction in the moment. And so what? That story is a great story because… And I figured it out that day. I, I handled or managed my emotional reaction to it and said, “What do you think you could do?”

Bill Berthel:

Yes.

Cathy Gaynor:

Well, brilliantly enough, my middle schooler thought of a better idea that I was all in my head about. She came up with a better idea. She goes, “Well,” and I hadn’t even thought of this. I don’t know why I didn’t think of this. But we can’t always think for them because

Bill Berthel:

We’re not. She was

Cathy Gaynor:

Right. We’re not in their shoes. So she said, “Well,” I said, “Well, what do you think you could do?” And she said, “Well, I think I could call somebody in my class and find out what the questions were and write them all down and write them out. I don’t need the actual worksheet.”

Bill Berthel:

Oh, good for her.

Cathy Gaynor:

Brilliant.

Bill Berthel:

Right? Yeah. She got creative, actually.

Cathy Gaynor:

So simple.

Bill Berthel:

Yes.

Cathy Gaynor:

But my reactions, what was going on in my head and my beliefs about the situation,

Cathy Gaynor:

Were like I had to really regulate in that moment.

Bill Berthel:

So what you’re bringing up for me, and I appreciate this a lot, is sometimes, often, maybe I’m taking on those things myself: solving the problem, cleaning it up, taking care of it, because I don’t want to be a burden on someone else or I’m avoiding actually the conflict of them possibly pushing back and saying they don’t want to do it.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yes.

Bill Berthel:

So, like, that’s my white horse. Yes. Right? It’s like the, is the

Cathy Gaynor:

Peacemaker. Make everything so peaceful. Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

For

Cathy Gaynor:

Everybody. So I’ll run myself ragged.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. So it’s not good for us. No. Right. By the way, you’re a lot better with our team than you’re making this sound. I need to say that you are a lot better at this than

Cathy Gaynor:

The

Bill Berthel:

Way you’re making yourself sound right now.

Cathy Gaynor:

Thank you. But…

Bill Berthel:

But you’re right. There’s like a piece that isn’t good for us in this. So not only are we maybe holding back the opportunity to either delegate something off or have a learning opportunity for someone else, we might be actually kind of locking ourselves up or even maybe possibly harming ourselves and taking on too much.

Cathy Gaynor:

Conflict is a good thing. If we always agree on anything.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

Like that. That I don’t need someone who always agrees with me.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

You know, on a team, you need someone who’s going to question your thing. And so often, you know, we talk about, and I, again, I have to remind myself all the time, is to say, “I don’t know.”

Cathy Gaynor:

Even if I think I have an idea, “I don’t know.”

Bill Berthel:

So that might be a doorway or a gateway to unlearning: just being able to really admit, “I don’t know.” Because then I can, like, maybe unlearn what I think I thought I knew about it and learn well instead of, you know… So we can unlearn through admitting our lack of knowledge or lack of ability.

Cathy Gaynor:

And I think in some ways it’s coming up with some mindsets around, “How can I possibly know?”

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

I’m not in your shoes.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

I can empathetically try and be, have an understanding of what’s going

Bill Berthel:

On

Cathy Gaynor:

For you. But how would you know? Like I, I tie it back again to my daughter. But I think it’s anybody you work with. We don’t know, like, the whole cup, how much is in their cup.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. And

Cathy Gaynor:

Is it, you know,

Bill Berthel:

When it’s overflowing?

Cathy Gaynor:

Like, we don’t know what their upbringing was. We don’t know what beliefs were seeded for them. And like for my daughter, just as parents, how can we think we know everything? They grew up in a totally different time with social media, with

Bill Berthel:

All of

Cathy Gaynor:

A different world. And I say now my childhood was probably more like my parents’. And when I was younger, I would have thought their childhood was so different from mine. But my daughter growing up with social media and technology is so different. So how do I know how to give her advice or advisement or solve the problem for her when I am not in her shoes and can’t imagine what that would be like?

Bill Berthel:

So, Cathy Gaynor, it almost sounds like one of the… It’s so basic. But one of the important pieces of unlearning is actually being really present in that moment and, and self aware.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Right? One of the books we have here is The Outward Mindset and that, that asks us to be not only self aware, but also aware of others. Right? And have that kind of, kind of mindset out there. I know for me personally it boiled down to less judgment in my life. You know, a much earlier version of Bill Berthel was actually quite judgmental.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Believe it or not, I think you probably know me as someone who’s not very judgmental.

Cathy Gaynor:

Right. Absolutely.

Bill Berthel:

But that’s something I really had to unlearn that, you know, really being, being more curious. Actually, I’m, I’m actually, I’m going to quote one of our favorite clients: “Be where your feet are.”

Cathy Gaynor:

Yes.

Bill Berthel:

He would always say that. I love that idea. Right? So I, I learned early that to really be where my feet are, I had to release judgments and get into curiosity.

Cathy Gaynor:

And I think for, for me, one thing that I say frequently for, mostly for myself, is to allow people to show up differently.

Bill Berthel:

Love that.

Cathy Gaynor:

And I think in this space of situations, peoples and people and relationships. So sometimes we don’t… aren’t present enough to say, “Am I affecting the outcome?” Because I already think I am judging how they’re going to show up and giving them a chance to show up differently. And I see this in myself a lot in my relationships. And I think even in work relationships, some people have worked with people for years.

Bill Berthel:

Yes.

Cathy Gaynor:

You know, we’ve worked for 10 years together. So you, you’re judging how someone’s going to react or not react or not. Like, and like you’re judging that whole situation and the person.

Bill Berthel:

So getting literally where your feet are, present. So I, I have done those kinds of exercises in real time where I am literally kind of wiggling my toes in my shoes, getting where my feet are.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Reminding myself I’m grounded so I don’t have to worry about the future or the past, so I can be present in that moment.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

And then really just release the judgment. Say, “I don’t have to know right or wrong for right now. I just have to be with that individual.”

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

Not easy to do.

Cathy Gaynor:

Not easy to do. One thing that came up with me when I read Outward Mindset, it was a personal situation. But it was fascinating to me because our human nature is to go immediately to, even though we’re not self centered, to, like, “How is this going to affect me, and what’s going on with me?” And so my personal situation, reading that book, I immediately didn’t even have to watch my judgments and my presence around, was I thinking about the outward…

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely.

Cathy Gaynor:

Other person and what their situation might be and, you know, emotional intelligence. You know, we practice this.

Bill Berthel:

We

Cathy Gaynor:

Talk about it. We teach others about it. I think that’s about being self aware and being present. I love your wiggling your toes.

Bill Berthel:

I was never seeing my feet moving. I might be doing it. So you know what’s happening.

Cathy Gaynor:

Yeah. Or just, you know, like just slowing down enough to pause

Bill Berthel:

It.

Cathy Gaynor:

And again, I think that goes back to how are we in anybody’s shoes to be able to… Coaching provided that for me. Like, that space of like, how would we ever? We’re not in their shoes. We’re

Bill Berthel:

Not in

Cathy Gaynor:

Their role.

Bill Berthel:

Right.

Cathy Gaynor:

How would we ever be able to tell them what would be the right fit to do?

Bill Berthel:

Right.

Cathy Gaynor:

It’s just holding the space and opening it with questions. And I do think that’s a leader’s role, like coaching as well. We feel like we’re in the people potential business. Yes. Right. Yes.

Bill Berthel:

Yes. So

Cathy Gaynor:

I think that mindset comes from practicing and unlearning some things and ask… Being curious and asking questions. And

Bill Berthel:

I think it’s more and more important. We talk about this a little bit as, as knowledge and information exponentially grow, our ability as individuals to grasp it all actually reduces. Yeah. That’s not doom and gloom. It’s actually pointing to how do you build stronger teams? How do you delegate more? How do you share more? Right? How do you, how do you connect with others more and get that clicking instead of you being that,

Cathy Gaynor:

You

Bill Berthel:

Know, knight on the white horse. You

Cathy Gaynor:

Help me a lot with that and coach me a lot on that is just the unlearning of like, how would I ever know what our accountant knows? Like, and why do I?

Bill Berthel:

It’s their job.

Cathy Gaynor:

Right. And like, I go to the do… I don’t really want to learn all that.

Bill Berthel:

Right. You would have become an accountant.

Cathy Gaynor:

Become an accountant and, like, go back to what I enjoy and where I feel like my impact is.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Cathy Gaynor:

And know that I have a trusted partner to do that. And I think that’s a lot about teams.

Bill Berthel:

100.

Cathy Gaynor:

You know, it’s like the trusted partners, to say they have that. You don’t need to know that.

Bill Berthel:

Yes.

Cathy Gaynor:

And where are your gifts or brilliance to the team? And I think that’s a leader’s responsibility and challenge, too, is to, to find the brilliance of where you can contribute, but also bring out other people’s brilliance.

Bill Berthel:

Cathy Gaynor, thank you so much. I’m looking forward to unlearning more with you.

Cathy Gaynor:

It’s a journey, and I’m glad I have you on it to give me feedback, because you give me great feedback.

Bill Berthel:

You, same.

Cathy Gaynor:

So thank you

Bill Berthel:

Very much.

Cathy Gaynor:

It was fun.

Bill Berthel:

Very fun.

Cathy Gaynor:

Very fun.

Bill Berthel:

Thank you for being here today, and we hope you picked something up from this episode that you can apply, and we hope you’re looking forward to more. Thanks for being here.