What if No One Wanted to Lead?

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel:

Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast. The Get Emergent Podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve performance of their leadership and those that they lead. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership. And we hope you’re going to find some better practice or something to apply right in your work. I’m Bill Berthel.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

And I’m Jeremiah M. Poulsen. It’s good to be back with you, Bill. And there’s been something coming up here lately for me that I wanted to bring up with you. There’s a bit of a theme that’s been showing up recently in my coaching conversations, in discovery sessions that we do with organizations as well as in large group facilitation. It’s this conversation, this theme around. It could be perceived as a, lack of talent in the talent pool, but that’s not what it is. What it is is there’s people choosing to not step into manager or leader roles. And thus the managers that are in place or the administrators are looking for those to promote and not finding them. And they’re saying, essentially what I hear is we’re looking for talent to promote. We’re looking for people to step into these roles, and we can’t find them. They’re not out there. And I don’t think that’s the problem. I don’t think that’s the issue. But I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. I’m thinking the issue is people are intentionally choosing not to go that route. So that’s kind of the topic I wanted to bring up. What is keeping people from stepping into those roles? How can we create maybe a different atmosphere for it to happen? And maybe we’re at an impasse here as a culture. You know, what do you think?

Bill Berthel:

I’m gonna, yeah, definitely take a stand here and say there is no shortage of talent. That’s not a thing. It’s really not. There might be a different set of motives. I think it’s, Well, I don’t have to think about it. There’s a lot of research already being done in this space where fewer people, and I don’t really want to turn this into a generational conversation, but particularly millennials and Gen Z are pursuing leadership roles less. They have many reasons for this, many motivations to avoid leadership roles. You know, we’ve sometimes on this podcast have talked about the kind of boiling down or netting out human motivation to simply two different things. You’re either approaching something or avoiding something. And I think that actually plays out really well in most human behavior is we avoid something we don’t want, or we want to, you know, put distance between us and that thing, or we’re attracted to something, so we approach it, we want that thing. The statistics are showing there are less people in the workforce that are attracted to leadership roles. And there’s some key reasons for this declining interest.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

I think right away, one key reason, without even looking at reports, is the fact that people see managers out there and they go, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to suffer like they’re suffering. Especially after post Covid, when you see a lot of the first line of layoffs maybe coming back was that middle management role. So what used to be the first step in was the first boot out, and there’s some kind of tension around. What does that look like for me? Why would I step into that if the risk is so high?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, I think we’re not throwing any leaders under the bus here, but maybe we’re talking about poor management examples. Unfortunately, if some folks have less than attractive examples of leadership in their network, in their workplaces. Yeah. Seeing current leaders overwhelmed or overstressed or whatever, that looks like that’s less attractive, for sure. Yeah. Poor management examples, I think, is a key indicator. I can go back in my own history and think, yeah, there was definitely a time where I did not want a leadership role. It wasn’t because of poor management examples. I was lucky. I was in an organization where there were really good leaders around. I was actually fearful of having that much responsibility. Like, it was like, whoa, that’s a big job. I don’t know if I would want that. Some of it to me boiled down to this idea of, like, not that I would be blamed, but the term that I’ve been reading about is like, called blame risk. I don’t know if I want the risk of, like, being blamed for something big going wrong or really, I wasn’t ready for that accountability, that responsibility. So it was not attractive to me. So I avoided some leadership opportunities, you know, earlier on in my career because it looked too big and too heavy.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

It makes sense if you’re seeing the potential. I want to be careful. But at the same time, leader, once you step into leadership, you are putting yourself in a position of responsibility. You are, and so if a leader has demonstrated to you, let’s say that younger Bill Berthel, a leader, has demonstrated to you in that space, man, this is heavy. If you Want to take this role, you better be ready for it kind of attitude, then it even further compounds that fear, that idea that man, I don’t know if I can handle that. I don’t think I can. It doesn’t really empower you to move into that role, right?

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. Whatever that is, if it’s the fear of failing in that or it looks like it’s a, lot of responsibility or accountability, I think that’s very real. Maybe I’m projecting here because I do relate to that, to some of my own experience. I think that speaks to a readiness as well. So I think that’s okay. If someone’s not ready, they may not be ready yet to aspire to that kind of accountability. There’s another key reason that seems to come to the top of most research and most lists that I think has me more concerned. And that’s the burnout and the mental health issues we see around leadership.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

is that related to the kind of burn candle at both ends always on culture of leadership?

Bill Berthel:

Exactly. Having to do more with less, perhaps the stress and anxiety around being the one to surface difficult conversations or having to. I don’t want to be the guy that has to fire somebody. M. That’s a hard job. The best advice I had ever gotten, I, reported directly to the president of the organization. She was an amazing leader. And I went to her one day. I was already in a leadership, pretty high level leadership role. And I’m like, I’m not sure how much longer I want to do this. I really don’t like firing people. And she looked me right in the eye and she said, that’s exactly the reason I want you doing this. The day you say you want to fire people and you’re comfortable with this, I don’t want you in the role. And so it’s a weird both and of, balancing the. It is stressful. As that one example. It might not just be firing somebody. It’s stressful to be the catalyst for the really tough conversation. Or you need to be the person to bring up those more difficult ideas. or challenge something. Yeah. That’s real. That could lead to some burnout or mental health challenges such as anxiety, stress, and maybe worse.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah. And in your. I love that story. Not because you got to fire somebody, but because. And you hated it. But because it solicits another thought. And I’m curious, before you took that role, was it clear that you were going to have to be a person who fired people in that role?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, in that role. It was the previous leadership role I had, it was not, And I can really remember that very first. And it was before needing to terminate someone. What wasn’t clear to me that I had a role in responsibility for someone else’s performance. I really wasn’t thinking about that. As a really young early leader, I was more excited about, you know, cool, we’ll get to do more with more people and I’ll have influence and share some of my expertise that I got to grow up to that point. That was all exciting. So that had me like, saying yes to leadership.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

But then when there were some performance challenges, it’s like, oh, I’m the guy that has to have this conversation. Didn’t realize that in this particular case, that did turn into, oh my gosh, I’m, the person that’s going to need to let this person go.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

And so no, I really was not thinking about it or highly aware of that now. Whose fault? Mine and my leaders. But, you know, let’s not talk about that fault. It’s really like, oh, I wasn’t aware of what it took.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Right. And that’s part of why I ask, because I think that we could do ourselves a favor on this. Not to jump to solutions for folks, but there’s something about knowing what the role entails that, that you don’t typically think about ahead of time so that you’re prepared when you get into that role and whether you’re talking about an individual contributor role. We’re really good at doing this in job interviews when we’re talking about, okay, what does this job entail? But when it’s an internal promotion, when somebody’s next in line for that open role. I think there’s a lot of unspoken parts of roles that we don’t get the chance to think through, talk through that we may not even know at first. But with an intentional, thoughtful apprenticeship, with an intentional, thoughtful mentor space where somebody gets the chance to even ride along with a newer manager to see what it’s really like. Now they get the chance to go, oh, wait, you got to have that conversation with somebody. I didn’t realize that was part of this role. You’ve got to do annual reviews. Oh, okay. Now I can make more of an informed choice on the matter.

Bill Berthel:

I love the ride along analogy. I mean, I. What comes to my head is, and, probably from watching too many police movies or police TV shows. Right. The rookie gets a ride along or a civilian gets a ride along in the police car and you get real firsthand, you know, Experience, or at least a front seat to the experience so you’re more informed on what that is. How might we do some more realistic ride alongs for aspiring leaders in the organization? And I think to have a really safe off ramp for those that become highly aware to be able to say, oh, thanks for the ride along. It validated that I’m not ready or I don’t want this kind of leadership role. Where else in the organization might I add value? I can become a subject matter expert over here in this thing or whatever it is. There’s a safe off ramp for me so I can have a career.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah. And you know what? That brings up another issue that I think keeps people from m Stepping into those roles or, or keeps people bouncing from one organization to another, one location to another. Is the only way forward is a manager position, is a supervisor position. And if somebody doesn’t either see themselves as that yet or never will, if that’s the only way forward, they’re going to bounce, they’re going to find or they may. Right. I don’t want to block everybody into that space. But somebody might say, well the ceiling is at this point of development, I don’t want to go into a manager role. What else is here for me? So how do we exhort, how do we celebrate alternative development plans and give people the choice for management or developing a more impactful individual contributor role. Right. That’s equally as powerful for the organization, highlighting impact over building the empire of the team. Right. And I don’t mean any disrespect to the idea of a manager for sure. You know what I’m saying?

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. And I think there’s a lot of organizations doing some version of that. In some areas it’s not uncommon for a really high performing salesperson to have the status and recognition and perhaps the compensation that a manager or a leader might have. Right. So there can be parallel, you know, comparable career paths. we see that in high tech, you know, subject matter experts in technology, whether that be an engineer or a programmer or pick your role. Those high level skills are very valuable to an organization so they can have the prestige, the status, the influence and the compensation that a leader might have. And that can be very, very healthy for an organization. The other effect that happens there is we’ll have people who want to lead in leadership roles not just feeling like it’s the only choice for growth. I think most of the reports are suggesting it’s about 1 in 4, like 25% of current leaders are Reluctant or really don’t want their role. Most of those leaders, when you get into the conversation, you get into the research, you find out they got into those roles because there was nowhere else to go to grow.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

I love that you said that. Let me read this to you. I read this in an article recently and on that point of like those who want to be managers. Yeah, this is hbr, Harvard Business Review article by Colleen Adler. I don’t know if we have to cite that stuff, but I think it’s

Bill Berthel:

great when we do.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah. February 10th just came out. We’re recording this around February. One passage of this says when a manager doesn’t actually want to be a manager, they lack authentic commitment to the engagement in the role. This can spell the difference between success and failure. Analysis from May 2024 Gartner survey. 984 senior leaders at mid level managers found that highly engaged managers are nearly four times more likely to be high enterprise contributors, more than twice as likely to have high intent to stay and three times more likely to exhibit high discretionary effort compared to their less engaged counterparts. Now my question is, did the management position come and then those characteristics or was it somebody who had strong enterprise contributions, somebody who was twice as likely to stay and somebody who was three times more likely to exhibit high discretionary effort before they ever got the management role? Right.

Bill Berthel:

Like the chicken and the egg?

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah, it’s the chicken and the egg. Is it causal that the management position created those characteristics? I personally don’t think so. I think that there’s, there’s something about that person, those people saying there’s some staying power with them that you can identify ahead of time that says I want a higher level of commitment to this and I’m willing to step into the discomfort of it before they get into that role and they’re saying I’m willing to do it.

Bill Berthel:

You know, I’m sure if those folks that felt more informed or more at choice, more a choice meaning. Well, the only choice I have is to go in a leadership role, otherwise I can’t grow. Isn’t the kind of choice I’m talking about.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Right.

Bill Berthel:

That choice to lead is I’m interested in leading, I’m interested in doing more through and with others. Not being an individual contributor or subject matter expert necessarily in whatever the technology or the service we provide. My guess is there’s more staying power there. Right. And much less reluctancy when there’s more choice, when there’s more agency.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

I would 100% agree because I think you could run those statistics for the people that have been around that are highly impactful, individual contributors that are well compensated. They had the choice to be in that position. They have that staying power. They have that contribution to the organization. But they don’t need to be in a manager role because they get to choose where they are on the team, in the project, on the role, you know, agency and the autonomy to choose where you want to be. Huge topic that I could run on for a while on the importance of it. I just think it’s so vastly important that people have that choice informed by the reality of the position that they’re being asked to fill or asking to fill. Right. Give them not just the information, but also the training ahead of time before they get into that role to know how to handle it.

Bill Berthel:

So one of the catalysts for this topic to come up was actually a question my son asked me because he knows the work I do. He’s 15 now, and the work I do. He knows I work with leaders, and his language. I try to build better bosses, which I love. But he asked me, he said. So we got on the topic of the longevity of jobs. Is AI taking over some jobs and what jobs might be more safe than some others currently? Because, he’s starting to think about college and he’s starting to think about what he might do in his life. And he said, so how stable is your job? What if nobody wants to lead anymore? That’s really interesting because there’s maybe a little bit of a trend happening here. So we got into that discussion. Right. So I love that question. What if nobody wants to lead anymore?

Jeremiah Poulsen:

1. Yeah. It’s funny because it brings me back to how we define leadership, too.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

if leadership is influence, then everybody’s leading somewhere. Absolutely. question is not if but how and who. Yeah, that’s good. If Will’s listening.

Bill Berthel:

Well, I don’t. I don’t think. I don’t think we’re going to be without leadership. Right. I think leadership will happen, but we might be in this trend of a small dip. Right. Where roughly 1 in 4. Again, not to make this generational, but we do need to see how many younger people want to come into leadership, and there’s a decline there. I think as leaders, we have a responsibility. I know when I got into leadership in the late. Well, really, actually kind of in the early to mid-90s, the CEO of the organization said, you know, your number one job as a leader is actually building more leaders. And that has always stuck with Me. And there’s something about that I think we all have as a role. Whether you’re in leadership development or not, you’re in leadership development. If you are a leader, you are in leadership development in your organization. And I think one of our most important jobs is to build other leaders. Mentor, coach, bring other leaders along. Don’t make it just look good so they think they want it. Be very real with them.

Bill Berthel:

But grow these young leaders into effective leaders.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah. And what would change about our organizations, about our communities, if everybody took on the approach that it’s part of my mission to develop the people around me, in ways that are to their benefit, in these skills of communication and these skills of difficult conversations, in the ways that we build trust. What would it look like if walking down the street, you saw that impact shared by neighbors? You know, and, not just for work, but yeah. I love the lesson you learned early on. Thanks for sharing it today too.

Bill Berthel:

Let’s build more leaders.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Build more leaders. So thank you, Jeremiah. You’re welcome. What do they do? You know, each time we talk about these things, we come to the end of the podcast and we talk about what are some pragmatic things people can do.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah. I think if you are a younger person in the workforce, ask more questions before you pass judgment on what leadership is looking like or seems like. Get a little more curious. I’d, encourage you to ask more questions of the leaders that are in your organization. And don’t just stay there. Ask questions to other leaders in your life when, wherever that’s from, you know, leaders, you know, that, that were, maybe in your school that you’re still connected to, maybe spiritual leaders in your community, government leaders, if you have access to them. Ask around why they care to lead. Stop looking at the kind of the symptoms around the leadership, but get into the more deep, meaningful conversation. Ask these people why they wanted to lead. You know, that was the focus of our previous video series, Driving Leadership. We wanted to demystify leadership. And so we did two years, two years, series of videos, one video every month. So there’s 24 videos out there for you folks to watch. And we got into just real conversations with leaders and really got to ask them why they cared about leading. You’ll hear some really great human stories that just demystify leadership. So I’d ask the younger folks out there to get into some of those conversations.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah.

Bill Berthel:

What would you do, Jeremiah?

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Well, I’ll speak to the other ones that are listening who are in those positions of Management and leadership already they’ve been around for a while. Maybe the long timers that are in a position where they’re looking to fill the role, to build a second. And I would say, is it worth. Are you making it worth it for them? And I mean it, are you making the compensation value of the position worth it for people to step into that role? Are you giving them that meaningful answer for not just the financial compensation, but are you giving them the meaningful reason, the why this is important to the organization? Why is it impactful for that person that you’re seeking out to step into that space of risky responsibility? Because it’s a risk to ask them to step into a different, uncomfortable space. And then secondly, how are you preparing them for it now? Even before you know who it is? What do you have in place that helps people grow in the skills that you know they’ll need moving forward, wherever they lead, wherever they work? What do you have in place to help them move into that role? Own the responsibility you’re in. Own the leadership you’re in and answer the questions. Answer the important questions of is this worth it for them? And why would it be if I were them?

Bill Berthel:

Great, Jeremiah, thank you. Thanks for this conversation.

Jeremiah Poulsen:

Yeah, thank you, Bill. Looking forward to the next one.

Bill Berthel:

And thanks for listening, folks. We hope you enjoy this episode and that you’re looking forward to more. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we hope you pick something up. You’re going to apply directly into your leadership and your work. Let us know how that goes. You can reach out to [email protected] directly to me, [email protected] or [email protected]. Thanks for listening.