The Dance of Dialogue

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

Welcome. I am Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there is one thing we have Learned in the 20 plus years of our business, is that leadership is a continued conversation. We are glad you are here.

So I follow these two young guys. They’re musicians so I think I watch them on YouTube mostly. And they are similar to buskers or busking. Right. That they play music in public. These guys do not expect a donation or anything like that. They’re just out there performing. I do not watch them for that, what they do. And they are doing it more often because they’re seeing their viewership, I think, go up. They even they just recently posted this beautiful montage of the videos where they stop people and ask if they can rap or sing to join them

Jeremiah Poulsen

If the other person can.

Bill Berthel

People walk by. Strangers, people walking by. And so they often ask if the person can rap instead of sing. Because I think they get a lot more yes to singing.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I can try. I do not think I can rap, but I. Most people belong with a lot of

Bill Berthel

Stuff, so I think most people will say, no, I cannot rap. Or they giggle and oh, my gosh, not me, but the person who says, yes, I can, can. And so they’re really cool videos of them playing like just a little bit of like 20 seconds lead in, 30 seconds lead in, and then handing the mic over for the person with freeform freestyle rap. Now, I am not into rapping, but every video is super cool compared to the ones of just them playing music, like on a city street or in a shopping mall plaza thing. They’re not there.

Bill Berthel

But I can ignore the videos that I am not so interested in for the ones that I really love. So I wonder how that is a social media connection. I wonder how in communication we are missing connection when we are. I do not know, are we ignoring each other sometimes? Are we. What are we doing? Right. So we wanted to talk a little bit about connecting. You are communicating. Connecting the meaning in our communication and maybe a little bit about what that impact means, especially for leaders and teams.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And I think, even sometimes we get communication and meaning mixed up.

Bill Berthel

Communication and meaning mixed up.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes. So we think because I am communicating, I am also connecting my meaning to what we are doing here.

Bill Berthel

Oh. Just because we are communicating. We have a shared meaning.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Yes. And how often have you had a conversation with somebody where you are talking about something and you I get accused of this? I was working with someone at one point and she was forthright enough thankfully to say to me, hey, every once in a while, while you are talking to me, I am looking at your eyes and you are here, but you are not here.

Bill Berthel

Oh, interesting.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I was wow, I thought I was really doing good at staying present with you. Yeah. And I was there, but I was definitely thinking about other things and she could see it. So meaning is more than just the words we say, the leaning in the, it is. Yeah. It is asking ourselves and playing around with why do I want to have this connection? What is the meaning behind the connection for me and for you? It is some of what is in terms of having crucial conversations. They talk about it in this book, what do I want for the person? What do I want for me? What do I want for us?

Bill Berthel

For the relationship? yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

That is getting into the meaning of not just the conversation, but the connection itself.

Bill Berthel

So I do like that content a lot. Can I debate it a little bit with you? Get a little challenged?

Jeremiah Poulsen

No.

Bill Berthel

Oh, that is awesome. How about asking me what I want? Yeah, I think that is an opportunity for a deeper connection. So I do like crucial conversations. I am not dissing it here, but I think we are still egocentric. If it is what I want for me, what I want for you, what I want for the relationship, how do we get to the shared meaning of the true connection of what’s what’s the we, what’s in it for both of us or what’s, you know?

Bill Berthel

What I mean?

Jeremiah Poulsen

And yeah. Co creating.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Partnering for success in the. In the outcome for both of us, for all of us involved.

Bill Berthel

And then for me, can I align to that? oh, that is what I want too. Or maybe you are going to make it even better than what I could have come in with. What I wanted.

Bill Berthel

I want to be open to that. That you. Like co creating it with you is going to be. I do not want to sound corny, but synergistic or, two plus two is five, not four. Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

It is part of resisting the temptation to make the assumption comes to you and recognize you do not have all the answers.

Bill Berthel

So we wanted to talk about what gets in the way of connection and our communication and the shared meaning. Right. I think sometimes it is that maybe slightly more egocentric, approach, to the conversation. I know that is often what I am stumbling on is I assume we already have the connection.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Hm.

Bill Berthel

And I assume we already know what we both want together in this thing. And I am down the path and all of a sudden I am oh, no, I missed. Or you missed. Or whatever that is. Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So assumptions do get in our way. an assumption I hear along with that often is. And this came up recently in an emergent leader session where we were talking about. we were talking about crucial conversations, conflict. the statement was, I know this is going to be a difficult conversation. This person has been so difficult to work with.

Jeremiah Poulsen

There, you are setting yourself up for. You are creating the pathway.

Jeremiah Poulsen

This will it to be difficult expecting them to show up in a difficult way. You are. You are almost, Kathy Gaynor will say, like our managing partner, she’ll say, you are armoring yourself up.

Jeremiah Poulsen

For the conversation ahead of time.

Jeremiah Poulsen

With that assumption, with that interpretation of.

Bill Berthel

But that is exactly it. It is a protection thing or a protection mechanism. I used to interview quite a bit my old HR days.

Bill Berthel

Interviewing was a lot of fun, but then there is an experience the employee has once hired, and then sometimes they are just neglected. And so we instilled what we called stay interviews. So I noticed in exit interviews, which is a normal practice when somebody’s going to leave, you have an interview with them, and unless they’re really disgruntled and ready to share why they’re really leaving, they’re not very valuable.

Bill Berthel

But a stay interview, if I interview you every time on your anniversary and ask you, so why’d you say yes to the job to begin with? five years ago, ten years ago. It brings an opportunity just to reflect on your alignment to what you love about the work or the people or the organization or the customer or whatever reason you said yes, so many people would answer, well, I needed a job. Well, cool. We have that common ground, as fundamental as. I said yes, because they needed a job. But people will dig in deeper. They will say, what? The people we work with are pretty cool. Or the technology we build, I love. Or the clients we serve are really nice people and I want to stay in their lives. it does not have to be complicated.

Bill Berthel

It is why did you say yes to the job?

Jeremiah Poulsen

I love that. Because it is not waiting until the departure moment to have the conversation.

Bill Berthel

It is way too late at that point. Really is. It really is.

Jeremiah Poulsen

There is a lot to be said for ongoing regular check ins.

Bill Berthel

Well, I think it is the way we share meaning through communication.

Bill Berthel

I think leaders and teams. Maybe I shouldn’t criminalize it. I think we get busy. I think we maybe sometimes miss those opportunities, have those regular check ins.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I still. I am stuck on the ask though. I think it is a big.

Bill Berthel

You think it is big?

Jeremiah Poulsen

, it is a big ask. I. Here’s why. Because I think that most of us.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And if. If we are not in the space of development and training, I think a lot of people would say I am, not just. I do not have time for it at work, but I do not need to do

Bill Berthel

That stuff like just get your job done.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I just want to show up. I just want to get. I just want to do my job.

Jeremiah Poulsen

I just want to do my job. But then there is also this other element of. I think it is a little bit intimidating. I think not just a little bit. I think it is pretty intimidating for people to slow down.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And ask themselves what’s really important to me.

Bill Berthel

I do not disagree with that.

Bill Berthel

I do not disagree with that.

Jeremiah Poulsen

That is the bigness that. in the.

Bill Berthel

I hear. I really hear you there. I think, I think where. Identifying another barrier to those kinds of connections. Right. Maybe what’s the old saying? keeping your nose to the grindstone or the.

Bill Berthel

It is like we do have to pick up our noses every once. We pick up our eyes. Look around. And I loved how you talked about it being introspective first. So just giving myself maybe the luxury of some time and reflective, energy to say so why do I care to be doing this work? Why do I care to be working with these people?

Bill Berthel

Why did I become a nurse? Why did I become a lawyer? Why did it become a engineer? Whatever. Whatever your role is. What is it about that. That I am still maybe enjoying or maybe better that I am still passionate or in

Jeremiah Poulsen

Love about or not.

Bill Berthel

Or not. Because I think it. I think it is, I think we are going to Venture into something else that gets in the way that we remain in this place of being an imposter we are holding on to or attached to some old meaning we had, yet we shifted and we changed.

Jeremiah Poulsen

?

Bill Berthel

So the work in identifying that is being able to, in those moments of any interaction does not even have to be negative. Just having some self awareness. What’s the messaging inside my thoughts? Right. What’s the inner narrative that is not empowering, that is disempowering. What part of my language to myself is holding me back? And it usually has some type of message of, not enough. It is where the imposter syndrome lives. It might be not smart enough. I do not deserve this. It might be something belong here. I do not exactly. I do not belong here. And so it, we all might say it a little differently inside of our heads, but we can start noticing that. And it sounds corny, but like invite it into the passenger seat.

Bill Berthel

So not where it can reach the driving controls, but just in you. You are not kicking it out of the car because we will not. It does not happen that it, it is with us.

Bill Berthel

But it does not have to be in control. So if we visualize just inviting it into the passenger seat, we can at least make a step towards it. No longer controlling us.

Bill Berthel

So let it be a, a little bit of a backseat driver person.

Bill Berthel

So I, I learned the acronym of GAIL in my, in my, in my coaching certification. And so G A I L stood for gremlin. So the gremlin is the inner part of the inner narrative. That is the inner critic. Right. So most psychologists are, therapists would call it the inner critic. Coaches sometimes call it the gremlin because it is almost like the little critter sitting on your shoulder whispering things into your ear about things you can’t do, shouldn’t do. it is there to help you play it safe. So it is a limiting belief. That is what the L stands for at the end of Gale. So let’s say with gremlin, it is a limiter. It is limiting your performance or your potential. So the gremlin is that inner critic part of our inner narrative and the assumptions. Right. The A and Gale is that we assume because it happened a certain way in the past, it’ll happen that way again now or in the future. So that is a solid limiter to connection because the last conversation we had did not go well and ours never go that way. Our conversations are always awesome. But let’s pretend you are welcome. Thank you. That is awesome. Pretend the last conversation we had did not go so well.

Bill Berthel

And let’s pretend that happens again. M. And then let’s pretend that happens again.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And we are starting to now I am dreading.

Bill Berthel

Well, we are establishing a pattern of an informed assumption. So assumptions do not have to be wrong or erroneous. They can be real experiences we had. Right. They usually are. So that fourth conversation, I am going to approach you probably either more guarded, more protected, less open, something. Right. So that is going to hold me back from having a shared meeting with you. My assumption that. Well, shoot. The last three conversations I had with Jeremiah did not go so well. This next one probably going to go so well. It is normal. It is normal for us to do that. Right.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And I have got observations and examples to call on in my memory of how this is not going to go well.

Bill Berthel

I can time travel pretty easily back to those three last conversations that did not go so well. Interpretations. The I of Gale’s Gail. The plural, the S. There is nothing for the S. It is multiple. Right. Well, these are not right. We are talking about. We are talking about four things here that get in the way. The interpretation is a belief or a set of beliefs that I adopted probably from somewhere important in my life. Maybe parents, maybe trusted people around me had the same, interpretations. Meaning, something is not good about the situation, something is not, right about the relationship. Something is not, agreeable about the context. It is where prejudice lives. I will pre judge it by my interpretations, whether or not I have had any experiences that way before.

Jeremiah Poulsen

And that is the difference between the assumption and the interpretation.

Bill Berthel

Yep.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So I do not need.

Bill Berthel

Whether I have had any experience with you or not automatically. I might say, well, a guy with a beard is not going to listen to me for some reason.

Bill Berthel

So those of you that are watching, we are both bearded, so I do not have, I do not have that. But I make some judgment. It could be just about, It could be about something as shallow as your facial hair. Right, Right. It could be something that is a little more deep rooted in me about the person the relationship, the situation that is in front of me. But the key here is that I will make an interpretation. Could be the environment, right? Could be the environment. I make an interpretation about the environment that is going to limit me from opening up or sharing my meaning or communicating.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Well, what’s an example of that?

Bill Berthel

The environment. Yeah. Every time I go into the boardroom, man, these people are not going to listen to me.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Okay. Yeah.

Bill Berthel

These people in the boardroom. Do you hear it? Yeah.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Them.

Bill Berthel

Might be my first time stepping into a boardroom. It is an assumption. If I say, what, the last five times I have been in this boardroom, I have been dismissed. That is an assumption that I will be dismissed again. I might have some type of shared meaning with a narrative my father shared with me that do not trust people in a boardroom. They’re just a bunch of suits or whatever. A bunch of talking heads. He might say, I am new to the workforce. I have never been in a boardroom. My first opportunity to go make a presentation of the executive leadership team, and I have got this interpretation playing. Will I be at full performance? Maybe not. Maybe not. The L stands for limiting beliefs. Now, the gai are forms of limiting beliefs. But any limiting belief that is disempowering fits into the L of limiting beliefs. Anything I might do in my inner narrative, in my behaviors and my actions, just because I am not feeling really great right now might have me disempowered. To give you a full shared meaning in this conversation, I am limiting myself somehow through my beliefs that then affect my behaviors and actions with you.

Jeremiah Poulsen

What do you think? So I love the, memory tool of gal Gale. The way that it helps.

Bill Berthel

Sorry. For anybody named Gail out there. Feel really bad about that. Sorry.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Sorry to all the gals. Yes.

Bill Berthel

I think the, maybe the last thing I would want to say about communication is it is a continual practice. It is a continual practice. I know. I have shared the joke I used to share with my mom. My mom was an attorney, and I was. As a teenager, I was always looking for lawyer jokes to rattle her cage a little bit. And it was hard to get her to laugh, and I rarely did. My favorite lawyer joke was, hey, mom, when are you going to stop practicing law and get it right? Right. And I would not even get a chuckle at her. Yeah. Being disrespectful, quite honestly. But because she knew it was not about getting it Right. That was not the goal. Is the practice of law. Yes. She wanted to be accurate in her technical execution of being a lawyer. But it is a continual practice. That is leadership. Leadership is a continual practice. Communication is one of those practices. Practice, practice, practice.

Jeremiah Poulsen

So practice listening. Practice asking questions. Practice validating people, whether you agree with them or not, or you come to an opinion or not. Practice it.

Bill Berthel

Practice paying attention to those gales. Yeah. Starts inside our own heads. Right. That is what, that is what you train in emergent leader. Is that that inner dialogue, that inner narrative is the first place communication starts with us. And that informs than how we listen and how we start sending signals after that. Right.

Bill Berthel

So it is an inside job. First listen, then share. That is all communication. Now we have the opportunity to get towards shared meaning.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Give it a try. Keep practicing. And I remember the first time I heard Ralph Simone talked about, the practice of this emergent work. And it was early on I was talking to him about trying to get things right. I just wanted to get it right. And I felt like I had dropped the ball on something. I forget even what it was. And he came back to that statement. Hey, we are, we are just practicing.

Bill Berthel

We are all practicing.

Jeremiah Poulsen

That is why we call it practice. We are working it out. We are. We are working toward a different state. We are practicing it forward. Absolutely. So treat yourself like somebody you care about. Awesome.

Bill Berthel

Thank you.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Thank you.

Jeremiah Poulsen

Appreciate it.