Signs and Symptoms

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel

Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast. The Get Emergent podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve performance of their leadership and those that they lead. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. And we’re going to hope that you find some better practices to apply directly in your work. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone

And I’m Rolf Simone. Bill, I’m really interested in the conversation today about signs and symptoms. And I thought it might be good for us to set a little context for our listeners, if you would, around this topic.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, I’m really interested to see where we go with this, Rolf, because I think the topic itself, Signs and Symptoms, comes from the medical field where really progressive practitioners, service providers, doctors, nurses, are differentiating between signs and symptoms of their patients very purposely. And I think there’s an analogy here or something we can borrow from that field for leadership where the leader could be observing both signs and symptoms of their teams and their organizations. So signs are what we see and hear, what we can observe. Objective data. So in the medical field it might be a numerical result from a medical test. Curious what you might think, but, I think in teams and organizations it’s maybe the data from surveys, it might be outputs results from a team. So they’re a little bit more objective.

Ralph Simone

Yeah, yeah.

Bill Berthel

Kind of data driven.

Ralph Simone

Those are signs where the symptoms are.

Bill Berthel

Then the symptoms are really what the team, either individuals or collectively, is telling us. Okay, so more subjective.

Ralph Simone

Yeah, right.

Bill Berthel

A little more subjective. But someone on the team might be saying, hey, we really need something to happen. We need a new tool. We need access to that information. We need more support from you leader. We need clearer direction. The team or the individual really, or the organization will articulate symptoms. Signs are not necessarily spoken or freely shared that way. Much more data driven results. Right. you know what we can see actually coming out of the team? See or hear.

Ralph Simone

This is fascinating to me initially from a personal perspective. Yeah. I’ve had the opportunity to be a, patient in the last eight years a little more often than perhaps I would like to. But I’m often impressed and appreciative of the signs. Right. The tests that can be run.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

The blood work, the biomarkers.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

The objective data that can drive behavior. But what I’ve always been a little bit worried about is my ability to convey symptoms to a medical professional in an effective way. Because, you know, I’m always wondering, do I have the right language. Am I describing it in a way that accurately paints the picture of what I’m experiencing? And I think as leaders, that’s a challenge for us because I don’t think our, people, when they subjectively express themselves, are often expressing accurately the symptoms that they’re experiencing.

Bill Berthel

So look, this drives to clear communication, right? Clear and effective communication. I think symptoms and signs both do, but differently. Let’s tease a little bit of the communication now for both of them as symptom experience expressors as individuals or on a team, it’s our clearest communication. It’s our most, you know, impeccable speech or writing that we can articulate as clearly as possible to the leader what’s missing, what’s needed, whatever the situation is calling for now, it’s the leader’s responsibility to interpret really well. Right. The doctor has had excellent training, we hope, on being able to listen to the layman’s language and terminology and then turn that into medical value. The leader, I think, needs to do the same thing.

Ralph Simone

And I think doctors are more skilled at it than most leaders. And I know that that’s qualitative, right? That’s ungrounded assessment. But I think as a leader, you know, our job is to be better interpreters. It’s to ask better questions. It’s to ask a question so someone can describe the symptom more accurately. So it leads to change in behavior or change in actions. And I think at least the doctors that I’ve been fortunate enough to interact with, I think are really, really good at that. In fact, not only are they good at discerning the symptom, they’re also good at knowing the patient absolutely. In knowing when to be more or less concerned about some of the signs that are appearing in the data. And, you know, I have a couple of examples where I’ve got some wonky blood work recently, and it’s certainly something to be aware of and monitored. But, you know, my doctor will, you know, say, well, let’s, let’s keep an eye on it, but let’s recognize it’s not significantly different than the baseline, that you run higher and let’s keep a watchful eye on it. And what that does for me, right, is it creates this sense of relief, less anxious about it, and therefore more present in my day to day activity. I think that’s somebody who’s actually reading, you know, the employee, the patient really effectively and communicating in a way that keeps an eye on the ball without causing too much concern.

Bill Berthel

So I think really effective leaders Just like very effective doctors are relying on both signs and symptoms, not over relying on either one. I want to go back to something you had just quickly mentioned. You threw out the term a, grounded or ungrounded assessment. Right. So we can sometimes, as leaders ground some assessments through signs where the more objective either systems we have or tools that show more objective data from our team or from our individuals on teams or from our organization and utilize what is being said, what is being experienced. Know your people.

Ralph Simone

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Both the ungrounded and grounded assessments are really important to a leader.

Ralph Simone

I think this combination of signs and symptoms are pointers.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

To where we need to focus our attention. Indicators.

Bill Berthel

I love that. Yeah. Pointers, indicators. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to kind of pick on one other, I think, piece you share there. So the signs and the symptoms could be, likened to the grounded, ungrounded assessment. But I think there is something about the training in which a medical provider gets to understand the way symptoms might be expressed and turn that into value. Leaders are doing that as well. And so not dismissing too quickly opinions or even an emotional response. You know, you might be hearing from your team on this is really hard, or this really sucks, or this is really, oh, we can’t do this. Not too quickly to dismiss that there might be a clue of a challenge to overcome or an improvement to make in that space. So listening deeply and helping to interpret towards more meaningful symptom language.

Ralph Simone

I think you’re. It makes a lot of sense to me. And I think you’re hitting on something that we have to be careful of, false positivity in organizations. Because I think what that does is it masks both symptoms and signals of things that need to be adapted or changed or modified. I think. You know, I remember I worked for a guy years ago, you know, don’t bring me problems, bring me solutions. And, nobody, nobody went into this guy’s office until they had something completely figured out.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And then, you know, of course you’d say, well, why didn’t somebody tell me about this? And you asked for that one day. I couldn’t help myself. I said, because you don’t want us to. Because you don’t really want to know the symptoms truly. You just want everything running smoothly. I almost think it was a, somewhat of a control issue for him. But we need to know and we need to be able to wade through the symptoms and use the symptoms in combination with the signs to take the best course of action.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. So I love that. So as leaders, we can be more cognizant of our potential use of false positivity. That’s actually just a different way of possibly dismissing something towards kind of a positive way, of looking at it. That’s a form of dismissal, as would be either ghosting or neglecting or just controlling too quickly, saying, no, you’re wrong, keep going in that direction, or, you know, I don’t want to hear the complaint. Don’t come to me unless you have a solution. Right. Too quickly dismissing perhaps. Right.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. And I think this pops up in our organizations with teams. Right. There’s various symptoms and signals with teams. Sometimes we’re too quick to say, well, we got the wrong people. Well, maybe we don’t have the wrong people. Maybe we have the wrong process, maybe we have the wrong problem that they’re working on, or maybe they’re not getting the support or resources they need to be successful. So I think we have to be able to look at this perhaps more holistically and in an integrated way at both signals and symptoms around teams. And I think teams probably are some of the, maybe the more important area to look at within an organization.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, I feel like in my leadership, sometimes I gravitate to one end or the other of this spectrum. I might want to be moving too quickly to solve or to get resolution. Right. Or to fix it. And so I’ll move too quickly and ignore, or neglect signs and symptoms. But you know what? There are other times, Rolf, where I will just absolutely love overanalyzing the signs and symptoms. So I think there’s some sort of. What do you think that sweet spot looks like? What is that?

Ralph Simone

What does that.

Bill Berthel

Because I’m guilty of living on both ends.

Ralph Simone

I think it brings us to having a balanced conversation.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone

Around both signs and symptoms, around relationships and tasks, in making sure that we’re not leaning too far one way or the other. And I think the key question, and this is around any paradox or any polarity, is, you know, what are the indicators that we’ve moved too far in one direction or the other? Are we being overly dependent on symptoms without validating through signs and data, or are we being too data driven in that paying attention to the culture, in the morale and the way people are feeling and what are the indicators? And, I think the sweet spot is key. Right. We don’t want to spend too much or too little time in an area we don’t want to over manage or under manage finding that sweet spot. I think part of it is just talking about it.

Bill Berthel

I like the balanced conversation. So I’VE got the right guy here. So you wrote the book Slow down to go faster. How can I slow down when I’m moving too quickly to solve or fix it? I see the solution, I see what we should do, and I just want to go for it. How can I slow myself?

Ralph Simone

I think declaring that and saying, look it, I think I see the solution. I want to move ahead quickly, but I am concerned that it could be too quickly. So I want to at least take a pause and get an honest read from the team. What do you think? Because maybe your instinct is right. Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

Could be that what you have. But I think part of it is just being honest that, you know, I’m ready to move ahead. But there’s something that suggests to you that maybe you’re moving too quickly. And I think just taking that pause in bouncing it off of somebody, a thought partner, you know, bouncing it off of, you know, the team or, you know, some trusted individuals who will give you an honest read on it. Because I think sometimes we second guess ourselves.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And we don’t move fast enough. Sometimes we are way too fast and we’re solving the wrong problem.

Bill Berthel

So how about in that other direction for. For a minute? Because I know it’s not the focus of your book, but I’m sure while researching, you’ve come across or experienced ways in which we can get ourselves into action more readily or more effectively. Because I do get stuck in the. I think a lot of leaders do. They enjoy the SC and symptoms. They enjoy the data gathering. They enjoy the possibilities.

Ralph Simone

Yes.

Ralph Simone

Yes.

Bill Berthel

How do I. How do I get into action a little quicker sometimes when I’m.

Ralph Simone

So I actually did write about this in the book. And when I reread the book recently over the holiday break, I said, geez, I’m contradicting myself here. Yes. And I was okay with it because sometimes we just need to do something. We need to run a small experiment. And so I think I changed. What I would do is I’d change the scope. So I’m noticing the indicator is I’m spending way too much time overthinking this. And so how do I change the scope and at least run a mini experiment? To me, that is kind of the breakthrough. Nothing changes if nothing changes. But I don’t need to make this whole scale change. Let me just take a couple steps and see if that makes any difference. So I noticed I was talking out of both sides of my mouth because it is balancing that tension. We have to find a way to move fast and Slow. And sometimes in the same conversation.

Bill Berthel

I love that. Change the scope. What’s resonating for me. Strong. I know you know that I enjoy many creative endeavors. And I’m thinking about woodworking right now. No matter what project or piece of furniture I’m building in the moment, I’m not building that piece of furniture. I’m focused on a dovetail joint on a drawer. So that has my focus. I’m not focused on building a chest of drawers. Right. Whatever the thing. I’m changing the scope of the activity that’s in front. I’m keeping the end in mind. I am building a chest of drawers. But in this moment, I’m laying out the drawer.

Ralph Simone

And Bill, I think you just gave yourself the answer. In one of the chapters in the book, I talk about the answer to how is yes. Whenever I get too much into the detail, too much into worrying about how. And this is, I think, control to some extent. I take myself out of the present moment and I paralyze myself, and I don’t take care of what’s right in front of right there.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

And I think that to get started, simply get started and don’t overthink all of the steps, because first of all, they’re not going to happen the way you plan them out anyway. And second of all, you’re going to arrive at your destination later. And so I think paying attention to the answer to how is yes, not overthinking all the steps and being present to what’s right in front of you, either the symptom of or the signal that’s right in front of you, and run a little experiment. But I think just getting started is key for most people. You can slow down as you get started. You can be thoughtful about how you start, but you want to start.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. I don’t want our conversation completely focused on signs and symptoms sounding problematic or negative. There are signs and symptoms of things going well, things going right. In our systems. There are data points that tell us we’re on track, that we’re achieving our goals. There are symptoms from our relationships, teams, and organizations. We want to be listening for those just as much that tell us, oh, we’re healthy. Oh, we’re moving forward. Oh, we’re doing this well or right or even better. We’re kicking butt and innovating like crazy right now, whatever that is. We need to be attuned to those as well.

Ralph Simone

I think so. And I think I’m glad you’re refocusing us there, because we will Attract what we look for. Yeah, right. Where our attention goes, energy flows, what do we want this culture to look like? What are the results that we intend on achieving and what are the signals and symptoms of those things happening? We often get what we look for. So I think this is a good counterbalancing discussion that perhaps even in our short conversation there was an indicator we might have gone too far one way, looking at it problematically, as opposed to from a positive perspective. That was a good,

Bill Berthel

What are the signs and symptoms of health, not lack of wellness in your meetings?

Ralph Simone

I look at when people are really excited to show up and when there’s an energy and there’s joking around and when people aren’t connected to their device. So you’re. You would interrupt them if you said really connected how things go. Yeah. You know, people are looking forward to being there. The way in which they’ve got some pep in their step as they walk through the threshold of the meeting room. And I think, to me, that’s a real good indicate symptom that the team is functioning at a reasonably high level. I think even the joking and the camaraderie, absolutely.

Bill Berthel

You know, those are symptoms of some health, of some connection. Right.

Ralph Simone

Because it indicates less guardedness. Yes. And, you know, but if I go in very stoic and very, you know, much in control, I’ve got my mask on, I’ve got my armor on. And so I think I like to look for that. I mean, I’ve, you know, we have our team, I’m on a few boards, and, you know, are we really getting into good discussion is a symptom or are we just handling things at a tertiary level? Yeah, symptom. Sometimes I think you have to intentionally put that head on. I mean, today in my board meeting, I’m going to talk about, you know, let’s have some meaningful discussion around the impact of our strategy, the results we’ve generated, and some new ideas of how to keep the momentum going. You know, let’s not make this a checklist of, you know, just reporting numbers. You can read numbers in an email, but let’s get people to really dig deep. And so if we hear some things that we don’t all agree with, then I think that’s a symptom of trust, and I think that’s a symptom of progress. I don’t know if everyone else will feel that way, so that will be interesting.

Bill Berthel

But absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And so I’m trying to intentionally change something and then I’m going to look for both Symptoms and signals of whether those changes made a positive impact.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. I think one of my favorite symptoms on a team is the kind of open, free sharing of what’s possible. Idea sharing. Right. That’s a symptom. So let’s not call all symptoms problematic or troublesome. But we want to be connected in a way that we’re readily sharing signs and symptoms together. And as leaders really being tuned in to reading those.

Ralph Simone

and we can do this in relationship. Right. One on one relationship, personal or professional, we can look at it more globally from the organizational perspective. I like the team aspect. The team I’m currently on, I feel is a very high performing team. And you know, 30 years ago at Carrier, I was on a similar team. It’s interesting. These are people I still stay in touch with, but we had a high trust, a genuine respect for one another. But we were also willing to go after each other.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And in a, and in a loving, caring way, but in a direct way. Correct. And to me that is a sim. If you can’t have the tough conversation, that’s a symptom of a lower performing team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So somehow.

Bill Berthel

Hey, thank you. I think sometimes our podcasts are full of symptoms. We’re just sharing some really great ideas together. Hopefully our listeners are interested in these series of symptoms. Hey folks, thanks for listening. we hope you enjoyed this episode and you’re looking forward to more. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcast podcasts. And we hope you pick something up that you’re going to apply to your leadership and your work. Let us know how that goes. You can reach out to ralph at [email protected] or directly to me at [email protected]. Let us know. Thank you.