Open to Everything

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Open to Everything: Transforming Leadership Mindsets

Bill Berthel

Welcome. I am Bill Berthel, and this is the Get Emergent podcast. Our team at Emergent has worked with leaders from all different industries at all different levels. And if there is one thing we’ve learned in the 20 plus years of our business, is that leadership is a continued conversation.

We are glad you are here, Ralph. We talk a lot about being open as a leader, really having that mindset of openness. And I am excited to talk with you today. More about that, because I think we are, I think we like to think we are open, but we probably have a lot of work to do in that space as well.

Ralph Simone

Just the very fact that statement we have a lot of work to do indicates we are open.

Bill Berthel

I hope so.

Ralph Simone

But I think in order to make connection, in order to continue to evolve and develop, you need to be open. And I do not know where I read this, but I have adopted it and customized it for my own. This idea of being, open to everything, attached to nothing, knowledgeable in something. And, I think we are knowledgeable in how to develop. And part of developing and evolving requires us to be open.

Bill Berthel

It is the open to everything that might get some folks bristling. Right. How am I open to those things that, they’re just wrong or they’re just really painful?

Ralph Simone

So maybe a couple distinctions. We have to.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

So I like what the Jesuits did with. Instead of judgment, it is discernment. And so discernment requires wisdom. And wisdom requires an openness to learning about something. It does not mean that you may, that is your preference.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

But you are open to considering why it might be someone else’s. So I think even. Even the words. Right. Put people off. How can I be open to that?

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

Well, I want you to be open to considering why someone el. I know. And that stance, I think, allows for deeper listening, deeper discussion in more productive conversation. I think for leaders in any industry, and particularly our industry, to, approach anything with that idea, that declaration. I do not know. As a coach, I do not know what you should.

Bill Berthel

Right, right.

Ralph Simone

What I am. What I am hearing or what I am, understanding is this. But what do you think you should do? Right.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

Because it is. I think this is an Eckhart Tolle, quote. It is in the know. It is in the not knowing that the knowing emerges. Yes.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

I love it. And so I Think the, the openness is an invitation to co create a solution that is better. Yeah.

Bill Berthel

So this isn’t a false ignorance. It is not, it is not like putting up some type of claim that I do not know as a tactic. No. This is truly with your own self awareness, being able to say I do not know or I do not know enough about that yet.

Ralph Simone

Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Right. It could be I do not know enough yet.

Ralph Simone

We were talking about the phrases, of Chuck Norris. Before we go, I was thinking about there is certain phrases that I have latched on to over the years and one of them was during my undergraduate years at Siena University. And a friend of mine said, there is one thing that you’ll always know and that is that you’ll never know. And because you’ll never know the whole thing about a situation, there is always more. So it does not mean you do not have knowledge, but it is this digging, maybe bringing off cubby, our paradigms, I think our paradigms, our mental maps of anything.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

Are at best incomplete.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And at worst wrong.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And so one of the reasons we want to be open is, is we want to have a more complete paradigm so that we can make better choices.

Bill Berthel

How would we be more open in how we look at time?

Ralph Simone

Well, I think we would look at it less, in a linear fashion.

Bill Berthel

Less linear.

Ralph Simone

Less linear.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

And I think when you in more, the metaphor of the compass rather than the clock. So if we are moving in the right direction and we are making progress, why is this meeting only an hour? That is an artificial construct.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And so let’s be open at the time of reaching the ending time.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

To continue.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And, and so I think that is being open to everything attached to nothing and the knowledgeable and something is that we are making really good progress and we ought to stay with this. Yeah.

Bill Berthel

Or pragmatically maybe we only have an hour schedule, but we’d agree to come back to it, not be done with it. Right.

Ralph Simone

Right.

Bill Berthel

So it might not be, I am not going to make my next commitment, but it will be, hey, this is really important to continue. Let’s give ourselves permission not to decide or not end this. Let’s stay open, get back together later.

Ralph Simone

You have actually influenced me a lot on permission not to finish. And so that keeps it open. And I think when we use the artificial construct of a particular, Time and that we do not give ourselves permission not to finish. And so we close. We close.

Bill Berthel

Maybe prematurely.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. So I think the applications for this are, but when you talk to somebody who’s open, who considers something, they’re actually more enjoyable to be with, there is a, there is an energy about them that is receptive.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And it allows, I think, me to be more open, more vulnerable. I would use that word less, armored up.

Ralph Simone

And so now we are having a more authentic conversation. And if I can just reduce my, just lightly grasp something as opposed to tightly grip it. That is the less attachment.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And, and it does not mean I do not have a preference. It does not mean I am not moving towards an intended outcome, but I think it is how you move towards that outcome. I think Michael Singer said that, why would we expect this moment, this moment right here, to be any different than it actually is? And so part of being attached to a particular outcome creates a tremendous amount of resistance and wasted energy. Because this moment is exactly how is it, how it is supposed to be?

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And if we can be open to that, if we can experience it, we will probably be more resourceful throughout the rest of our day in our time here. There was a Harvard Business Review article, it might be over 25 years old now, and said, do why it is difficult to teach smart people to learn? Because they’ve been successful, with how they’ve done it all along. And so this idea of now saying, let’s look, let’s break the box, let’s look outside the box, let’s break the box. Why would I want to do that? And so that is, that is, that is not open to everything.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. I think I have heard the similar, analogy with, the second championship is the harder one to win because the success of the first championship of a sports team. Right. You may lose track that everything has actually changed.

Ralph Simone

Exactly right.

Bill Berthel

And you might choose to do it the same way you won the first championship, especially the second one. That is harder.

Ralph Simone

Change is the only constant. And I think when you go back to the question you asked a few minutes ago, as leaders, how do we help our people be more open? I think you have to make it a safer environment. One of the reasons people, want to control things is because they’re afraid.

Bill Berthel

Sure.

Ralph Simone

Right. So that gives them the illusion. Right. Of control. But Things are still changing. And so if we can make it safer for people, if we can talk about experimentation, if we can take the growth mindset, We talk about the mindsets of transformational leaders. Possibility thinking. That is an openness. Right. That is exponential thinking.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely. So you mentioned knowledge. You mentioned, open detachment. Knowledge. I think a lot of us think we know.

Ralph Simone

Well, we do know a few things. Yeah. Yeah. But how much could we possibly know about any given topic?

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

So, I like to read a lot. You like to read a lot. And I have got a lot of books. And I remember, one day I was feeling quite full of myself. We are in Barnes and Noble, actually. Rennie was with me and I am looking around and he said, yeah, dad, just look at all the books you haven’t read. You think you have got a lot of books on the topic that you have a fair amount of knowledge on.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And so that was humbling. Right. So there is a fair amount of humility. So I think that is. I think we know and there is more to know.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And that is what openness brings us. So I, I like the word better than best.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

When people talk about the best year ever, that, that what about the next year?

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

And so this idea, if we can think about, let’s approach things as how do we get better? I may know a lot about the topic of leadership and coaching, but I do not know nearly enough to declare myself complete.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. And I think what I hear, maybe Rennie pointing out to you at the bookstore is maybe an aisle two or over from the leadership reading you may know even less about.

Ralph Simone

I have been fortunate enough to be in the business of consulting and coaching for almost the last 40 years. And even if you took a 50 mile radius around Syracuse, even though I have traveled all over the world, I am still impressed with companies I have never heard of and how they’ve stood up these products. And so you think, what do you really know? Even if a lot about a particular topic, so it is really staying open to that learning, staying open to that experimentation, staying open, that there is a different way, a better way. But, but, but probably never a single way.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

The way.

Bill Berthel

Right. Right.

Ralph Simone

This is a way. And it works for now. Because language, as we, We talk about language, is generative. And I think the language you use as a leader.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

As a parent, also creates that openness.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

Absolutely. You know, this year, as you Know, I went, I am really excited about not writing my book, but now marketing, promoting it.

Bill Berthel

 

Ralph Simone

And that is new territory for me. We have been a regional business for a long time. We do not really market more than regionally. At one time when I first started, I didn’t have my phone number in the phone book. There wasn’t this need to actively promote.

Bill Berthel

So right now some of our listeners are going, what’s a phone book?

Ralph Simone

Yeah, that is true. I forget about that. But the idea of being open, things I have never even thought of. Yeah, but, but that requires you to bring in new people. But you need to be open to that. It requires you to invest. You need to be open to that. Right. And, and so what got, what got you here will not get you there.

Bill Berthel

Yes.

Ralph Simone

And so exploring and treating it as an experiment and being curious about what you can learn and then how you can apply it and even bring it back to the core business.

Bill Berthel

I love that. I love what got me here. Will not get me there. Yeah. Right. I, I do hold on to that personally. Right. It is. That is, that is one of my favorites.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. I think the lines like that, I think create an openness. I think what you are finding, lines in your business or values that, what will keep us growing, what will keep us scaling, and what’s the language that keeps people focused on, an open, an open mind.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And I think that is where I think we could solve many of the challenges that we have in our organizations, in our communities, in our country, in our world, if we were more open to the both and to the balance, to the energies and the upsides of these opposites.

Bill Berthel

Jonathan Haidt says it really well, in the righteous mind, it does not mean giving up your values, it does not mean giving up your past, but it does mean detaching from those for a moment so you can be open to understanding the other.

Ralph Simone

Well, so openness, helps get to context.

Bill Berthel

Yeah., I like that.

Ralph Simone

So one of the things that if you spend, and I do not think you do, but if you spend any time on social media, very minimal. Good for you. Doom scrolling. What? Many comments lack this context.

Bill Berthel

Oh, absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And so the openness, gives way to context. With more context, your perspective has changed. There is a line, in the course in miracles. And a miracle is a slight shift in perception or perspective. And the way that you get that is by being open to another inviting. But that just. And I think this is not just tolerating. Right. You said this earlier. How can we need to invite that level of openness? We need to invite that different perspective and genuinely invite it and genuinely be with it and not feel so, obligated to respond immediately.

Bill Berthel

It is reminding me of an episode we did a while ago of the leader as the host. Right. You, you invite others into a space, whether it is a, whether it is a party, whether it is a dinner, whether it is a meeting. I am inviting my team in as leader. I am, I am hosting. Right. I am, I am, I am, I do not have to be the expert. I am creating a space where people can really come together. Being that leader as host is an open function. It is opening. Right.

Ralph Simone

And and so that is, but that is the, the idea of the balance. Right. It is street. Yeah. Book smart and street smart. And people usually talk about them as either or.

Bill Berthel

Right. Yeah.

Ralph Simone

We need to have the grounded theoretical knowledge and we need to be able to practically apply it.

Bill Berthel

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone

And that requires an openness. And usually people talk about, well, I am, I am, I have, common sense, I am pragmatic, I, and these guys are, pie in the sky. Well, there is value to both. Yeah. But that requires an openness to see that value and we have to detach from our identity. I think identity gets in the way when we identify as being an expert or when we. Any label. Any label limits the open.

Bill Berthel

Yeah, I am closed because I am not that other thing.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. You leave everything else. If I declare this, I leave everything else out.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. Not, to bring it to an end too soon, but, that defensiveness I think is really interesting. So that is maybe one of the early signs or signals that I am not open. What other signals might leaders be looking for to say, oh, like this is a place I could practice openness or well, here’s an opportunity to open it up a little bit.

Ralph Simone

I think you, I think watch your initial internal response or reaction to anything.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

I will give you silly examples. So I was, I am doing some mentoring, through CEO Center State. And they had an event and it was a social event and they’re playing trivia and I was like, oh my God, I never play trivia. Right. What fun it was. But my, my initial reaction was not open.

Bill Berthel

That was More that. Oh my. God.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. So here I am talking about it. But I think there is a, there is a self awareness. So just notice when something new is suggested to you. Notice where you go first.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

And, and, and get curious then. I would suggest get curious about it. Notice at first, get curious about it and then maybe ask yourself what could you, what could this be? Right. And then just, reframe it for yourself. But I think that is one thing. Just notice your internal response or reaction to anything that is interesting that is new.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

I think it gives you an indicator of, of your current, initial openness.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. So is it as like I am leaning in or I am not, I am leaning, I am resisting or I am leaning away from.

Ralph Simone

Yeah, I think so.

Bill Berthel

It is like that.

Ralph Simone

You depending on people are really.

Bill Berthel

Oh yeah.

Ralph Simone

Wow. That should be fun.

Bill Berthel

Maybe more, maybe more open.

Ralph Simone

Yeah. And, and then because I think that openness impacts how you show up. I think it impacts your influence on the system, on people and so you are going to go guard it and and I am, I am driving over and saying, geez, I have never played trivia before and all this self talk, which is not open really because it is too tied to identity. So what? I think they’re different things and I do not think they have to be big things.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

Either.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

There can be little experiments. I remember the, just the experiment of eating, learning to eat with chopsticks and so just being open to making a mess.

Bill Berthel

Yeah. You know, but not getting it right.

Ralph Simone

Not getting it right. But now, 30 years later, I am quite proficient.

Bill Berthel

Right.

Ralph Simone

Well, not compared to people, from Asia, but right into that. Those little things along the way. I love that. And I think, do not, do not make them so big. Because I think that if it is too big, the gap, the step is too large.

Bill Berthel

Yeah.

Ralph Simone

Build that muscle. Build that openness, muscles, one small step at a time. But this idea of it, and I do not know where I heard it, I want to be more open to everything, attached to nothing, knowledgeable in something that has some power for me, to stay more open than I might normally be.

Bill Berthel

Ralph, thank you.

Ralph Simone

Thanks, Bill.