Battling the Inward Mindset

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Bill Berthel
Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast. The Get Emergent podcast guides leaders to creatively strengthen relationships and improve the performance of their leadership and those they lead. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and leadership. Hopefully, you will find some better practices to apply directly in your work. I’m Bill Berthel.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
And I’m Jeremiah Poulsen.

 

Bill Berthel
Jeremiah, I’m really looking forward to this conversation. On this episode, we want to talk about a book I think we both value. It’s been a long time since I read it. The title is The Outward Mindset. This is not just a book discussion. There are some beautiful applications for leaders to consider from this outward mindset perspective.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes, leaders in every phase. We define leadership as influence. So it is not only about the workspace. It is that, but it is much more than that as well. It is not if you are influencing, it is who and how you are influencing them. The Outward Mindset gives us a real good kick in the pants, if you will, about what it means to live in a way that is helpful in all of those categories. I love that it applies to all the different situations you find yourself in.

 

Bill Berthel
And I think, not to dilute it, but just to speak to the richness of what we get to do. So much of our work is holistic. I know that is in our mission, but I think you and I really value that we can apply many of these ideas, concepts, and practices in almost any aspect of our life. It is not just organizational leadership, but parenting, being a better neighbor, being a good brother, whatever it may be. We can really apply this in most places in our lives.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes, and there is also that element of the expected place and then the unexpected place. I was talking to a leader recently who went through a reorganization that changed the dynamic of their responsibilities. The principles of leadership we discuss both here on the podcast and through all the different ways we do this do not cease to be valuable because responsibilities change. Everything flows and flexes, so we stay in that place of holistic flexibility and take the principles we learn and apply them as needed throughout the journey.

 

Bill Berthel
The title Outward Mindset almost implies that there must also be an inward mindset. The title grabbed me. I remember when it came out, and this is from the Arbinger Institute. This is an aside, but it is interesting to think about books that are written by an organization or institute rather than a single author. We see that with many leadership books, and I think this genre perhaps holds more of those kinds of publications than others. But The Outward Mindset—what is either a key takeaway, or what was it about the book that you really appreciated when you read it recently?

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
I like what you said about the idea of a group putting together a resource. One of the things I like about that is typically, when a research house puts together a book like this, it is well founded in research and study. It is reliable in a way. Not to say that individual authors cannot be, but there is a certain texture to it that brings that credibility. In The Outward Mindset, you find really great stories that help the principles become accessible while also being rooted in fundamental research.

 

The thing that really stood out to me was this idea that our behavior can either be focused on our own protection and advancement, or on the protection and advancement of others. Like you said earlier, it is the juxtaposition between inward and outward. The inward mindset is about protecting myself and treating other people as tools for my own protection and advancement. In a sense, it is treating people like objects. The Outward Mindset challenges us to view other people’s needs, objectives, and challenges as our intentional motivation for behavior.

 

There is a trap here of becoming outwardly nice, which is treating other people as humans but not necessarily considering their needs, objectives, and challenges. The book does a good job of articulating the difference. As a side note, the Arbinger Institute also published Leadership and Self Deception, which I think is a great pairing. The Outward Mindset drives us to action in a way that is different and unique from Leadership and Self Deception.

 

Bill Berthel
So it is not just a book on politeness. It could look like that. The shift from a more inward focus to an outward focus is not just about being polite or nice or feel-good. There are pragmatic, purposeful reasons for this. But I want to go back to when you were describing the inward mindset. It almost sounded divisive. It sounds like I see others as tools or mechanisms to get what I want.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
It can turn into fatalism, it can turn into isolationism. But at the same time, I think it feels like you are doing the right thing. It feels like you are protecting what you ought to protect, you are taking responsibility. And it might turn out to be some sort of extreme independence where you say, it is my four and no more. I just need to protect and advance my own gains. And there is a separation in that. It keeps us from real meaningful connection with those outside of our house. For me personally, it means everybody outside of me becomes a way for me to move forward rather than an opportunity for connection.

 

I have a perfect example of this recently. My son is going off to college in a couple of weeks, which brings all kinds of emotions. We went to a friend’s house to smoke some bacon. We do this every so often. There is nothing like homemade bacon. Sorry to all my vegan and vegetarian friends out there. While we were at his house, he and his wife started having a conversation with my son, asking how he was feeling about college. They asked him what he had for his apartment. He said, I have some stuff. We are going to send him with a few things. But they intentionally asked, do you have a frying pan? Do you have a two-quart saucepan? Do you have this? Now this guy is a great chef, a foodie expert. They did not just ask what his needs were and connect with him at that level. His wife started going to the cupboards, grabbing things, putting them on the table, and bagging them for him. She said, take this with you, take this with you, you don’t have to worry about this now. It was not just the outward focus, but also the behavior of meeting a need they saw.

 

Bill Berthel
Yes.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
In a way that they had nothing to gain from.

 

Bill Berthel
Yes. The acronym in the book SAM comes to mind. The M is for seeing others. In your story, that was a beautiful example of your friends seeing your son. It is not just physically noticing him, but truly seeing this young man at a transitional time in his life. They adjusted their efforts. You were smoking bacon, you could have been talking about something else, but they made time and adjusted their behavior. Then they looked for a measurable impact. They tried to make an impact with your son. They got a bag out. It was not just generosity, although you could say they are generous friends. It was deeper than that. They made an impact. He is going to take those cooking essentials to his new apartment. That will make a difference.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
For sure. And it is working to advance the opportunities of the other. That impact is so important. There are many reasons we can get in our own way on this. It takes internal work and external behavior. When it is flowing, not just in personal life but amplified in team approaches, planning, and organizational processes, the effect is tremendous. For example, how does my team think of the needs, objectives, and challenges of another team across the plant or across departments? What are the needs, objectives, and challenges of other leaders that I can consider and take action on for their advancement? That is such a great place.

 

Bill Berthel
You said it earlier—it is about moving from independence to interdependence. It is not just me as an individual. We can extend that to our organizations, families, and communities. It ripples outward, beyond our immediate circles. But I have to ask you: don’t we still get something from this? I get enjoyment, fulfillment. Isn’t that still inwardly focused somehow? I am not doing it purely out of altruism.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes. The book begins with a quote from G. K. Chesterton: “How much larger your life would be if yourself could become smaller.” This resonates years later because there is a benefit to interdependence that is innate and automatic. When you begin looking outward, seeing the needs around you, and taking action for others’ good, it pays dividends for everyone involved. When we reverse the equation—meeting our needs first and only—we actually shrink our world instead of growing it.

 

Bill Berthel
A shameless plug for our LeadForward retreat. We do a deep dive into those protecting mechanisms so we can understand them as humans and as leaders. How we protect in three categories—relationships, self, and things. Those processes and behaviors keep us from an outward mindset, don’t they?

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes. And the beautiful thing is once you experiment and start letting go of protective behaviors and mindsets, you realize you flourish much more than you would in a closed-off framework. I love that you raised the question of the tension between what we get and what we give. I am not an expert on this—I just read the book and now we are talking about it. I am doing the work.

 

Bill Berthel
That is when I read it too. So if we are confessing, let me try to answer.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
What do you think keeps you personally from moving to that outward mindset?

 

Bill Berthel
Great question. I will start academically, then personally. The reason I chose psychology to study was because of a professor who said, if you are interested in understanding how we are free agents with motives who behave in certain ways, this field might be interesting. That turned something on for me. Free agency, freedom, creativity—these are big values for me.

 

At its foundation, psychology is about how we think and behave as individuals and in relationship with others. I am a fan of B. F. Skinner and motivational behavior. He is the original “stick and carrot” guy, attracted or repelled. I put it in terms of love and fear. The reason we do not go to an outward mindset is fear. The outward mindset is love. That might sound corny, but I do not think you can get more fundamental. Fear drives protection.

 

Some argue that we protect because we love what we protect. Of course you do. But true protectionism is rooted in fear—fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of harm to relationships. That is all inward. When we take the risk to love, it is outward. Fear is primal and automatic. Love takes effort.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes, fear has its place.

 

Bill Berthel
Exactly.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Whether you believe in intelligent design or evolution, fear keeps us alive. We need it to survive. But I think we over-rely on fear. Leaders, I believe, cannot lean too heavily on fear. Leadership is a fearless job. It is a love-filled job.

 

Bill Berthel
Yes.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
So would you say that when leaders go to an inward mindset, they are functioning out of fear?

 

Bill Berthel
I think in fewer than three steps you can trace it back to fear.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
So you are grabbing hold, limiting the free agency of others, because you want to direct and dominate out of fear.

 

Bill Berthel
Yes. And sometimes we make it sound like love. We might say, I love my team, I am protecting them. But we may actually be holding them back. Context matters, of course, but it is still fear-based. The antidote is experimentation with outward behaviors—love or creativity.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
One of the questions a leader could ask themselves is, what am I afraid of?

 

Bill Berthel
Absolutely.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
And do not hit the easy button. Take time to dig in. If I am treating people as objects, what am I afraid of? Am I afraid of losing recognition, approval, or something else? Then address that.

 

Bill Berthel
In manufacturing continuous improvement there is a principle called the 5 Whys. You ask why five times, digging deeper each time. It is not petulant; it is designed to reveal underlying value. You could apply the same to fear—ask, what am I afraid of? Within three steps you will find something meaningful.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes. That makes me think of it in another way. If the future reality is that I begin functioning outwardly—advancing others, meeting their needs, helping them overcome obstacles—why might I be afraid of doing that? That is a journal prompt for listeners. What might I fear if I helped others without focusing on my own protection or advancement?

 

Bill Berthel
For me personally, the answer is fear. I fear that by going outward, I will discover things I do not like about myself—traits or values I negatively judge in others. It is scary to realize that. Sometimes I avoid going outward because I fear learning that about myself. But I know that intuitively, growth comes from those discoveries.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Extending yourself outward creates vulnerability. You fear what you might find about yourself as you help others. For me, honestly, I am just lazy.

 

Bill Berthel
You are not lazy.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
I do not want to be uncomfortable. I do not want to take time away from my routine to figure out someone else’s needs.

 

Bill Berthel
You are conserving energy for something else. You are not lazy, but you are protecting that effort.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Fair enough. To put it in terms of fear, I am afraid of discomfort. And embracing any new mindset brings discomfort. But growth happens in the discomfort zone.

 

Bill Berthel
It does. And it does not have to be huge. Start small. For example, I met a future coaching client during a training session on emotional and social intelligence. At the first break, he came up and said, I am very routine. I do the exact same thing every day. Do you have a quick hack for me to get comfortable breaking routine? I said, do you drive to work? He said yes. I said, then take a different route home today. He looked at me and said, I don’t think I like you. He was joking, but it was a big enough ask for him. Just a different path.

 

Jeremiah Poulsen
Yes. And I would suggest, as we think about applying this, start with your closest relationships. Start with people you already love, or want to love more. See their needs, challenges, and objectives, and do something about it. That can be your “different path home.”

 

Bill Berthel
Jeremiah, I love that idea. Folks, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you are looking forward to more. You can listen to a new podcast twice every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you picked something up you want to apply in your leadership or your work, let us know how it goes by reaching out to [email protected], or directly to me at [email protected], or Jeremiah at [email protected].